W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > March 2008

Re: Exploring new vocabularies for HTML

From: T.V Raman <raman@google.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 15:51:19 -0700
Message-ID: <18409.33255.526231.146061@retriever.corp.google.com>
To: codedread@gmail.com
Cc: Neils@dessci.com, ian@hixie.ch, whatwg@whatwg.org, public-html@w3.org


To animating vectors, add the same for math equations. 

the cases written down so far give you static mathematics --- but
it would be nice to 
be able use the live hypertext features of the Web to
expand/collapse equations to explain a complex proof. This can be
done today with careful tweaking of CSS bits if you really know
what you're doing, but writing it is difficult. 

Another good place to look at is the various JSMath libraries
people have written to display MathML inside HTML.

Jeff Schiller writes:
 > Neil, I would say "exporting" is half of "round-tripping"...so I think
 > that's covered.
 > 
 > Ian,
 > 
 > Here's another use case:
 > 
 > 5. The ability to animate elements in a web page (hypertext, vector
 > graphics) without using script.
 >   * sizes, positions, opacities, colors, transforms (basically most
 > attributes and properties)
 >   * time-based and DOM event triggering for begin/end
 >   * linear, spline interpolation
 >   * inlined (for simple web pages) and non-inlined animations (to promote
 > separation of content and presentation)
 > 
 > Regards,
 > Jeff
 > 
 > On 3/25/08, Neil Soiffer <Neils@dessci.com> wrote:
 > >
 > > What about compatibility with XHTML?  Right now, one can take an XHTML
 > > document and serve it up as HTML and it (mostly) works.  If one adds MathML
 > > or SVG, than they must have a namespace associated with them and it would be
 > > useful if they too worked.  This means that HTML5 needs to handle namespaces
 > > to some extent.  At a minimum, if HTML5 "ignores" them, it needs to ignore
 > > the namespace syntax and semantics so as to preserve the XHTML meaning of
 > > these for MathML and SVG.
 > >
 > > The other issue that you seemed to miss is "export".  If someone copies
 > > the SVG or MathML from a document, it should be serialized as per those
 > > specs (including any namespace requirements) so that it can be pasted into a
 > > SVG or MathML consuming app.  This may not change your solution in that you
 > > might require browsers that provide a serialization that follows the specs,
 > > but you did omit export from your use cases.
 > >
 > > Neil Soiffer
 > > Senior Scientist
 > > Design Science, Inc.
 > > neils@dessci.com
 > > www.dessci.com
 > > ~ Makers of Equation Editor, MathType, MathPlayer and MathFlow ~
 > >
 > >
 > > On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch> wrote:
 > >
 > > >
 > > > I've read all 367 e-mails that were sent to the WHATWG, the HTMLWG, and
 > > > to
 > > > other forums on the topic of MathML, SVG, namespaces, etc, in HTML,
 > > > spanning threads from 2006 to 2008. [1]
 > > >
 > > > I've tried to summarise the problems (use cases) that people want
 > > > solved,
 > > > along with what they consider most important when faced with those
 > > > problems [2]:
 > > >
 > > >  1. Putting an equation in a Web page.
 > > >     Priorities:
 > > >      * Maintainability
 > > >      * Searchability
 > > >      * Accessibility
 > > >      * Typographically-sound printing
 > > >      * Ease of authoring (are authors willing to learn new formats?)
 > > >      * Ease of import from existing documents
 > > >      * Ease of implementation (are UAs willing to implement new
 > > > formats?)
 > > >      * Resistance to errors (e.g. not brittle in the face of syntax
 > > > errors)
 > > >
 > > >  2. Migrating from LaTeX to HTML.
 > > >     Priorities:
 > > >      * Fidelity
 > > >
 > > >  3. Writing a document by hand, with inline diagrams imported from a
 > > >     graphics package.
 > > >     Priorities:
 > > >      * Compatibility with existing graphics packages
 > > >      * Resistance to errors (e.g. not brittle in the face of syntax
 > > > errors)
 > > >      * Scriptable (retained-mode, with DOM support, without requiring
 > > >        cross-frame scripting)
 > > >      * Round-tripping (the ability to take image fragments from a Web
 > > > page
 > > >        and edit them)
 > > >
 > > >  4. Writing documents that include diagrams that include
 > > >     typographically-correct mathematics.
 > > >
 > > > Philip also wrote a detailed story, which touches on several of the
 > > > points
 > > > above, of what we want to enable. In addition to the points above, his
 > > > requirements include a solution for ID clashes in multiple-document
 > > > transclution, and a solution for embedding custom non-visible data in an
 > > > HTML document for scripting purposes. [3]
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > Now, please, if I've missed something that you want to do, please let me
 > > > know as soon as possible. I intend to start working on solutions to
 > > > these
 > > > problems tomorrow, and things that aren't on the list of problems will
 > > > likely not be considered as constraints.
 > > >
 > > > In particular, people seemed to jump to solutions that the above
 > > > problems
 > > > don't imply. For example, nowhere in the above list of problems do
 > > > namespaces appear anywhere, yet the majority of the discussion revolved
 > > > around namespace issues. If this is because I've missed a problem that
 > > > in
 > > > fact requires those solutions, please tell me as soon as possible.
 > > >
 > > > I cannot solve problems I don't know exist!
 > > >
 > > >
 > > > [1]
 > > > http://www.whatwg.org/issues/#html-parsing-rules-namespaces-discussion
 > > > [2] http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/New_Vocabularies
 > > > [3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Mar/0156.html
 > > >
 > > > Cheers,
 > > > --
 > > > Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
 > > > http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
 > > > Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
 > > >
 > >
 > >

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

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Received on Tuesday, 25 March 2008 22:52:14 UTC

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