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Re: q, quote, blockquote

From: Karl Dubost <karl@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 09:13:07 +0900
Message-Id: <29074F2A-3641-4AC3-9412-BA556FB7E22B@w3.org>
Cc: public-html@w3.org
To: Charles Hinshaw <charles@everydayrevolution.com>



Charles Hinshaw (11 sept. 2007 - 03:27) :
> In my example, the way that we know that the paragraph is a quote  
> is that it has a cite attribute -- making it a paragraph that cites  
> an outside source. That was actually my suggestion -- that changing  
> quotation tag names to the use of a cite attribute (or combinations  
> of attributes that adequately create a citation) on other existing  
> tags makes more sense.

cite="uri" is used in two contexts in HTML 4.01

* quoted texts:  "q" and "blockquote"

   cite = uri [CT]
   The value of this attribute is a URI that
   designates a source document or message.
   This attribute is intended to give
   information about the source from which
   the quotation was borrowed.

* document changes: "ins" and "del"

   cite = uri [CT]
   The value of this attribute is a URI that
   designates a source document or message.
   This attribute is intended to point to
   information explaining why a document was
   changed.

I'm not sure how often the cite attribute is used for ins and del.  
But if it is used, that makes the cite attribute not appropriate as a  
trigger for quoted text.

The cite attribute with a URI value used in the context of quoted  
text is used a lot more, and then can't be redefined with plain text.  
Plus the fact that

	<p>Molière écrit, dans Les précieuses ridicules,
	« Je connois ce qui nous a fait mépriser. » </p>

Here a sentence which contains

* the name of the author: Molière
* the title of a play: Les précieuses ridicules
* the quoted text: Je connois ce qui nous a fait mépriser.

In HTML 4.01, and with extrapolating what we can do.

	<p>
	<span class="auteur">Molière<span>
	écrit, dans
	<cite class="titre">Les précieuses ridicules</cite>,
	« <q cite="urn:isbn:2877141489">
	Je connois ce qui nous a fait mépriser.
	</q> » </p>

My main trouble with blockquote/q is the duplication of elements with  
the same meaning, aka marking up a quoted text. A generic "quote"  
element which could be used in any context would be a lot better and  
more flexible. around two paragraphs or inline. (display property in  
CSS can manage the way it should be rendered.)

Another trouble is that there is no defined way to associate author,  
title and quoted text. It is common that you have authors, quoted  
texts across more than one paragraph and that you want to associate  
them. Though it could look like the for/id combination.


	<p>
	<span class="auteur" for="q-x300">Molière<span>
	écrit, dans
	<cite class="titre" for="q-x300">Les précieuses ridicules</cite>,
	« <q id="q-x300" cite="urn:isbn:2877141489">
	Je connois ce qui nous a fait mépriser.
	</q> » </p>

Note that it doesn't solve everything, because it doesn't tell you  
which is author and which is title. The property mechanism of rdfa  
[3] would be very helpful in this context. At least it will be usable  
in html5/xml.

<div xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/">
    <span property="dc:title">Yowl</span>,
    created by
    <span property="dc:creator">Mark Birbeck</span>.
</div>

	

[1]http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#adef-cite-Q
[2]http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/text.html#adef-cite-INS
[3]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/


-- 
Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/
W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead
   QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/
      *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Received on Tuesday, 11 September 2007 00:13:17 UTC

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