W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > September 2007

Re: User Testing of Accessiblity Features

From: Tighe K. Lory <tkl02@health.state.ny.us>
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:00:59 -0400
To: "T.V Raman" <raman@google.com>
Cc: ac@nomensa.com, olivier.gendrin@gmail.com, poehlman1@comcast.net, public-html@w3.org, raman@cs.cornell.edu, tkl02@health.state.ny.us, w3c-wai-ig@w3.org, w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org
Message-ID: <OFE9D3965C.FF46FD93-ON8525734C.0057AEED-8525734C.0057FACC@notes.health.state.ny.us>



Thanks T.V.,

      I really appreciate your comments.  I would also like to ask you if
you think that making a live Linux CD that contains EmacsSpeak would be
useful for visually impaired users to give EmacsSpeak a try?

Thanks,
Tighe



                                                                       
             "T.V Raman"                                               
             <raman@google.com                                         
             >                                                          To
                                       tkl02@health.state.ny.us        
             08/31/2007 07:00                                           cc
             PM                        ac@nomensa.com,                 
                                       olivier.gendrin@gmail.com,      
                                       poehlman1@comcast.net,          
                                       public-html@w3.org,             
                                       w3c-wai-ig@w3.org,              
                                       w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org,      
                                       raman@cs.cornell.edu            
                                                                   Subject
                                       Re: User Testing of Accessiblity
                                       Features                        
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                       





Not quite sure what you were looking for with respect to my
comments on
http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/Chapter11.html

But here are a few.

0) It's a mistake to pigeon-hole Aural CSS as assistive/adaptive
    technology -- it's a media-specific style technology for a
    media that is waiting to happen on the Web at some
    point. (where some point == when we're all tired of clicking
    on flashing pictures)

1) Note the points that Joe recorded faithfuly in his article
    with respect to what I said about using class values
    intelligently as an author, and not worrying at authoring
    time about how it might get used (today you'd call that
    microformats).

2) The biggest risk with respect to accessibility is to define
    tomorrow's authoring solutions based on yesterday's access
    technology. The reason this is a downward death-spiral is
    that today's access technologies were written yesterday to
    work the content that was created the day-before-yesterday.

3) So: break the vicious circle, write clean content, use
    meaningful markup, and intelligent software that leverages
    your content in ways you never imagined will "emerge" -- that
    in fact is the secret to the success of the Web. Arguments of
    the form "no tool uses X", therefore "drop X" and "people did
    Y yesterday, so bless it as the one and only solution for
    tomorrow" typically lead to the death-spiral sketched out
    above.


4)  Taking the sum total of the above, Accessibility contrary to
    common belief is actually extremely easy to do if done right.
Easy:

A)      You dont need to go test your content with one or other
        access tool. But then in a Web that stuck to its original
        design goals, you wouldn't need to test your content in
        different browsers either.

B) As authors, make sure you *always* own your content in the
        sense that your content never becomes the slave of some
        authoring tool that purports to "make your life
        easy". They usually dont, and only make your life more
        difficult down the line.

C) I myself came to XML/XHTML from the world of LaTeX, and *all*
        my notes from graduate school that I wrote in LaTeX are
        still usable and machine-processable.
        Having moved from LaTeX to XHTML for a while, I now find
        myself mostly creating content in:
        0) LaTeXfor high-quality print output
        1) Emacs/org-mode http://orgmode.org for pretty much
        everything else

        And generate XHTML when needed for the Web --
        Using tex4ht for LaTeX and Emacs/org-mode export
        facilities for the rest.
        D) And for intelligent uses of class values see these
        sections of the online Emacspeak documentation:
        WebSearch:

http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/info/html/emacspeak_002dwebsearch.html#emacspeak_002dwebsearch

        URL Templates:

http://emacspeak.sourceforge.net/info/html/emacspeak_002durl_002dtemplate.html#emacspeak_002durl_002dtemplate


        E) And in a final interesting twist on leveraging class
        values,a few years ago if you told HTML authors to put
        unique id values on containers, they would flatly
        refuse. But any time you AJAX-enable your site with
        JavaScript handlers, those handlers need to address
        portions of the page, and authors end up putting unique
        ids. As an example, see the "CNN Content" URL template in
        the Emacspeak codebase.


Hope you found this a good read, it's Friday afternoon which is
        probably why I got philosophical. Tighe K. Lory writes:
 >
 >
 >
 > In reading this article there are comments by T.V. Raman, who has posted
on
 > this list in the past.  I would be interested in his opinion on this
 > subject.
 >
 >
 >
 >              "Tighe K. Lory"
 >              <tkl02@health.sta
 >              te.ny.us>
To
 >              Sent by:                  "Tighe K. Lory"
 >              w3c-wai-ig-reques         <tkl02@health.state.ny.us>
 >              t@w3.org
cc
 >                                        "Alastair Campbell"
 >                                        <ac@nomensa.com>, "Olivier
GENDRIN"
 >              08/30/2007 09:53          <olivier.gendrin@gmail.com>,
"David
 >              AM                        Poehlman"
<poehlman1@comcast.net>,
 >                                        "HTML WG" <public-html@w3.org>,
 >                                        "WAI Interest Group list"
 >                                        <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>,
 >                                        w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org
 >
Subject
 >                                        Re: User Testing of Accessiblity
 >                                        Features
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > Joe Clark has an excellent article that covers aural stylesheets.
 >
 > http://joeclark.org/book/sashay/serialization/Chapter11.html
 >
 >
 >
 >              "Tighe K. Lory"
 >              <tkl02@health.sta
 >              te.ny.us>
To
 >              Sent by:                  "David Poehlman"
 >              w3c-wai-ig-reques         <poehlman1@comcast.net>
 >              t@w3.org
cc
 >                                        "Alastair Campbell"
 >                                        <ac@nomensa.com>, "Olivier
GENDRIN"
 >              08/30/2007 09:40          <olivier.gendrin@gmail.com>,
"HTML
 >              AM                        WG" <public-html@w3.org>, "Tighe
K.
 >                                        Lory" <tkl02@health.state.ny.us>,
 >                                        "WAI Interest Group list"
 >                                        <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
 >
Subject
 >                                        Re: User Testing of Accessiblity
 >                                        Features
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > Hi David, I agree, I avoid doing such things.  There are still many
 > designers out there that use such trivial images.  My thinking is that a
 > visual aesthetic can be represented aurally in a different way other
than
 > alt text.
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >              "David Poehlman"
 >              <poehlman1@comcas
 >              t.net>
To
 >                                        "Olivier GENDRIN"
 >              08/30/2007 09:33          <olivier.gendrin@gmail.com>,
"Tighe
 >              AM                        K. Lory"
<tkl02@health.state.ny.us>
 >
cc
 >                                        "Alastair Campbell"
 >                                        <ac@nomensa.com>, "HTML WG"
 >                                        <public-html@w3.org>, "WAI
Interest
 >                                        Group list" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
 >
Subject
 >                                        Re: User Testing of Accessiblity
 >                                        Features
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > So why put useless stuff on the page in the first place?  If it is there
it
 >
 > should be useful, if it is useful, we need to know it is there.
 >
 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: "Tighe K. Lory" <tkl02@health.state.ny.us>
 > To: "Olivier GENDRIN" <olivier.gendrin@gmail.com>
 > Cc: "Alastair Campbell" <ac@nomensa.com>; "HTML WG"
<public-html@w3.org>;
 > "WAI Interest Group list" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
 > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 9:22 AM
 > Subject: Re: User Testing of Accessiblity Features
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > > And my colleague Léonie would argue that if the image conveys
something
 > (even "just" emotive), then she would like to know it's there and what
it
 > is supposed to represent.
 > >
 > > That demonstrates the hard-core usability vs holistic experience
divide
 > quite nicely.
 >
 > Maybe we should think of this in the reverse. For example, if a designer
 > were to use aural stylesheets to give different voices to various parts
of
 > a page -- should there be an alternative for those not using a screen
 > reader?   I would say yes, in most cases a designer would use a
different
 > font face/size.  But the designer wouldn't put a notice on the page to
 > non-screenreader users that different voices are being used.  I think
the
 > same could be done for background images that are just eye candy.  A
 > similar emotive feeling could be expressed in a different way then just
 > putting alt text on the page.  It is harsh to the way the page is read,
and
 > gets in the way when the informative value is questionable.  It reminds
me
 > of a point one of my former colleagues made in regards to the
differences
 > between print and Web media.  He would say that they are different, and
you
 > can't just take a print publication and dump it on a Web page and expect
it
 > to be effective.  Our jobs as Web developers is to convey important
 > information to users, not document every visual/aural design choice on a
 > page, that is not what the user wants or needs.  I believe that
 > accessibility and usability must be considered together when designing,
 > What is the point of a accessible page that is completely unusable?
 >
 >
 >
 >              "Olivier GENDRIN"
 >              <olivier.gendrin@
 >              gmail.com>
To
 >                                        "Alastair Campbell"
 >              08/30/2007 06:45          <ac@nomensa.com>
 >              AM
cc
 >                                        "Tighe K. Lory"
 >                                        <tkl02@health.state.ny.us>, "WAI
 >                                        Interest Group list"
 >                                        <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>, "HTML WG"
 >                                        <public-html@w3.org>
 >
Subject
 >                                        Re: User Testing of Accessiblity
 >                                        Features
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > On 8/30/07, Alastair Campbell <ac@nomensa.com> wrote:
 > >
 > > Tighe K. Lory wrote:
 > > > An example would be a stockphoto of a person ...
 > > > Putting in alt text would just clutter up what the screen reader
says,
 > and
 > > > I think make the site less useable.
 > >
 > > And my colleague Léonie would argue that if the image conveys
something
 > (even "just" emotive), then she would like to know it's there and what
it
 > is supposed to represent.
 > >
 > > That demonstrates the hard-core usability vs holistic experience
divide
 > quite nicely.
 >
 > I strongly opposed to that, because if you began to explain
 > illustrative images (which generaly convey emotive, or mood
 > informations), you will also have to explain the graphical choises of
 > the website, because a website that uses sharp lines has not the same
 > emotive  sense that a website that uses round corners...
 >
 > So it leads directly to have alt even on CSS background images,
 > because of emotion...
 >
 > --
 > Olivier G.
 > http://www.lespacedunmatin.info/blog/
 >
 >
 >
 > IMPORTANT NOTICE:  This e-mail and any attachments may contain
confidential
 >
 > or sensitive information which is, or may be, legally privileged or
 > otherwise protected by law from further disclosure.  It is intended only
 > for
 > the addressee.  If you received this in error or from someone who was
not
 > authorized to send it to you, please do not distribute, copy or use it
or
 > any attachments.  Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail
and
 > delete this from your system. Thank you for your cooperation.
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > IMPORTANT NOTICE:  This e-mail and any attachments may contain
confidential
 > or sensitive information which is, or may be, legally privileged or
 > otherwise protected by law from further disclosure.  It is intended only
 > for the addressee.  If you received this in error or from someone who
was
 > not authorized to send it to you, please do not distribute, copy or use
it
 > or any attachments.  Please notify the sender immediately by reply
e-mail
 > and delete this from your system. Thank you for your cooperation.
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > IMPORTANT NOTICE:  This e-mail and any attachments may contain
confidential
 > or sensitive information which is, or may be, legally privileged or
 > otherwise protected by law from further disclosure.  It is intended only
 > for the addressee.  If you received this in error or from someone who
was
 > not authorized to send it to you, please do not distribute, copy or use
it
 > or any attachments.  Please notify the sender immediately by reply
e-mail
 > and delete this from your system. Thank you for your cooperation.
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > IMPORTANT NOTICE:  This e-mail and any attachments may contain
confidential or sensitive information which is, or may be, legally
privileged or otherwise protected by law from further disclosure.  It is
intended only for the addressee.  If you received this in error or from
someone who was not authorized to send it to you, please do not distribute,
copy or use it or any attachments.  Please notify the sender immediately by
reply e-mail and delete this from your system. Thank you for your
cooperation.
 >

--
Best Regards,
--raman

Title:  Research Scientist
Email:  raman@google.com
WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
Google: tv+raman
GTalk:  raman@google.com, tv.raman.tv@gmail.com
PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc




IMPORTANT NOTICE:  This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential or sensitive information which is, or may be, legally privileged or otherwise protected by law from further disclosure.  It is intended only for the addressee.  If you received this in error or from someone who was not authorized to send it to you, please do not distribute, copy or use it or any attachments.  Please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and delete this from your system. Thank you for your cooperation.
Received on Tuesday, 4 September 2007 16:01:43 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Wednesday, 9 May 2012 00:16:07 GMT