Re: 'HTML 5' and some poem markup?

2007-10-06 01:52:45 +0200 Dave Singer:
> At 20:19  +0200 5/10/07, Dr. Olaf Hoffmann wrote:
>> Philip TAYLOR wrote:

>>>   At the other end is a language so rich [... but] so vast
>>>   that no human would ever be able to remember the name of
>>>   each and every element [...]

Yes. But has HTML 4 found the golden middle road that covers enough kinds of texts? 

The answer from the HTML 5 draft is no! XHTML 2 - just as HTML 4 - «lacks elements to express the semantics of many of the non-document types of content often seen on the Web.» (HTML 5 draft, point 1.1.2)

In particular, I think we could have a general element to cover text-within-texts, such as poems. Poems, espcially on the web, appears inside a lot of other text - yet it is necessary to singl eit out. See below.

>> Well, I agree, HTML does not require to have specific elements
>> not related to text [...] audio, video, canvas etc is more related to
>> SMIL [...]

> [...]  "what HTML element is the correct 
> one to use for embedding a SMIL file?".  The proposed answer is "video, or 
> audio for non-visual presentations". [...]

> [...] Text is, of course, itself a media type in this sense.

At first I wanted answer: Sure, but we don't want an element <TEXT>. 

But then I was thinking: Actually, yes, an element <TEXT> is just what we need. I think there is link between <VIDEO> and <AUDIO> and <TEXT> - via <OBJECT>. Because, <AUDIO> and <VIDEO> are just specialiced versions of the <OBJECT>. But <OBJECT> can be used for more than simply embedding of non-text-media. OBJECT, can also be used to embed texts. I can for instance do this - which does validate:

<H1>Poems</H1>
<P>Poems are very interesting - I have a short one here: 
    <object>
     <H1>Blackbird</H1>
     <P>Blackbird singin in the dead of night</P>
   </object> 
   And I could have quoted many more.
</P>

The point is: With the OBJECT element, I can place a poem anywhere I want, with the added benefit that I will also get rid of the problem about header elements that Olaf mentioned: If I use H1 or H2 as title of my poems, then, when I move each poem to a new page, the H1, H2 etc will perhaps not fit into that page structure. As long as I place the H1 inside an <OBJECT>, then it doesn't matter that I also use <H1> outside the <OBJECT>.  Or, more accurately, we could defined that it should not. What counts is only that there is a logical structure _inside_ the <OBJECT> element. 

However, similar problems as those that apply to OBJECT when used for video, and audio, also appilies for text inside OBJECT. OBJECT is just as difficult to use for embedded texts as they are for embedded video/audo. 

An that is why I propose the element TEXT.

As soon as we have added VIDEO and AUDIO, it would also be logical to introduce a <TEXT> element. <TEXT> should not really be used for «embedding» text - or, it should, but in should be a kind of «meta-embedding». The <TEXT> element could be used to present a text-in-a-text. I.e. the use case would be that we want to place a - somewhat - independent or distinct piece of text  - often by another or special kind compared to the rest of that page/section/element where the TEXT appears. 

If someone says BLOCKQUOTE, then - OK, but poems are not quotes. (Well, sometimes they are, but...) And thus, we cannot use <blockquote> (which, btw, also have some limitations on where they can occur). That said, I think it would be logical to be able to give the authorative source of a text - if it is from outside this document, the copyright of it and other things. (If I publish a "Best of" collection with poems, then they are not quotes or blockquotes, in any proper sense of those words.)

A <TEXT> element should be like INS and DEL: it should be possible to use as block-level and inline-level.

We could then also have a 'kind' attribute, perhaps: <TEXT kind=poem>.

There are many instances where it would be great to be able to insert/embed a text, without presenting it as a quote or blockquote, and where we want the internal structure of that piece of text to be independent from the rest of the text in that page/element. And for those cases, we could use TEXT as the text version of OBJECT. 
 

On 2007-10-06 13:41:13 +0200 "Dr. Olaf Hoffmann" <Dr.O.Hoffmann@gmx.de>:

> It is an exaggeration that I try to blow up HTML with very specific elements.

I completely agree. 

I also think that poems has a special place online: Many poems are only published online. And there are whole web sites focused on the writing and sharing of poems, often with discussion about the poetry one presents and so on. And there are sites for sharing of fiction writings in general. I imagine that it would be quite handy to be able to use a <text> element to single out a work of art from the rest of a message - e.g. in a web forum posting. I also imagine that one could use TEXT for non-fiction texts.

> I just like to have any meaningful element to put in some poem like content.
> And none of the current suggestions solves this problem yet. As most
> authors I do not need a specific element for 'sonnet', even if I have a
> several of them waiting for some useful markup.

And this made me come up with the idea about TEXT - as it could also be used to cover other kinds of texts than just poems. TEXT could work to single out something as an independent structure.
-- 
leif halvard silli

Received on Saturday, 6 October 2007 19:35:16 UTC