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Re: Visible MetaData == "Visible to whom?" was Re: Design Principles

From: T.V Raman <raman@google.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 11:38:59 -0700
Message-ID: <17932.1987.943405.711310@retriever.corp.google.com>
To: mjs@apple.com
Cc: raman@google.com, w3c-lists@mikeschinkel.com, hsivonen@iki.fi, public-html@w3.org


Actually it's a cause and effect problem -- today browsers show
something visible because links to feeds were a success.

You can argue until eternity as to which is the cause and which
the effect; I still believe that RSS and ATOM linking would not
have happened without the link element. The problem with  someone
coming up with the feed="uri" attribute on A elements and
succeeding is that that person then needs to wait for the
browsers to implement it. Innovation should not be limited to
browser vendors; that will kill the Web permanently --- or at the
least cause it to stagnate --- as  the period since 1998 proved.

Maciej Stachowiak writes:
 > 
 > On Mar 29, 2007, at 11:11 AM, T.V Raman wrote:
 > 
 > >
 > >
 > > Well said. Another good example of invisible metadata that later
 > > became "visible" and is a big success on the web is the use of
 > > the link element to point at
 > > RSS and ATOM feeds   in HTML pages; later, these became "visible"
 > > when browsers started showing an XML icon on pages.
 > 
 > Browsers do show an icon for feeds in the UI, but, the XML icon on  
 > web pages (which really should be an "RSS" or "Atom" or "Feed" icon)  
 > is an <a href> link in the content. Wouldn't it have been better to  
 > just use <a rel="feed"> instead of <link rel="alternate"> to discover  
 > feeds in the first place? Then no one would have to wait for special  
 > UI in the browser to see the feed links, and there would be no chance  
 > of an explicitly author-added link in the visible page content  
 > getting out of sync a feed specified in the <head> section.
 > 
 > So this is actually a perfect example of why visible metadata is  
 > better (and indeed HTML5 supports feed discovery on <a> elements,  
 > belatedly solving htis problem).
 > 
 > Regards,
 > Maciej
 > 
 > 
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > Mike Schinkel writes:
 > >> Henri Sivonen wrote:
 > >>> On Mar 29, 2007, at 19:06, T.V Raman wrote:
 > >>>> A)  The metadata needs to be "visible" to the intended target.
 > >>>> B0- The metadata needs to be "invisible" to those it's not
 > >>>> intended for.
 > >>> The design principle aims to combine those cases when possible and
 > >>> reasonable. When metadata is rendered to the user under the usual
 > >>> browsing conditions, errors in the metadata are more likely to be
 > >>> noticed and fixed. Metadata that is not rendered under the usual
 > >>> conditions often gets copied as part of a template and is wrong.
 > >> This is an opinion that does a lot of damage to potential growth  
 > >> on the
 > >> web, I think. It is used as a weapon against introducing  
 > >> mechanisms for
 > >> metadata that may not be visible on the HTML page at the time of
 > >> introduction, but that can become "visible" via other means.  Again,
 > >> I'll point to T.oolicio.us as an example project whose goal is to
 > >> empower to use of significant semantic metadata, much of it being
 > >> "invisible" at first. I expect there will also be other tools that  
 > >> will
 > >> leverage metadata, not just T.oolicio.us.
 > >>
 > >> If mechanisms for adding metadata are empowered to be squashed by  
 > >> (IMO)
 > >> short-sighted principles,  then many of the potential future benefits
 > >> will be minimized.
 > >>
 > >> -- 
 > >> -Mike Schinkel
 > >> http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
 > >> http://www.welldesignedurls.org
 > >> http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us
 > >> "It never ceases to amaze how many people will proactively debate  
 > >> away attempts to improve the web..."
 > >>
 > >
 > > -- 
 > > Best Regards,
 > > --raman
 > >
 > > Title:  Research Scientist
 > > Email:  raman@google.com
 > > WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
 > > Google: tv+raman
 > > GTalk:  raman@google.com, tv.raman.tv@gmail.com
 > > PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc
 > >
 > >

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

Title:  Research Scientist      
Email:  raman@google.com
WWW:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/
Google: tv+raman 
GTalk:  raman@google.com, tv.raman.tv@gmail.com
PGP:    http://emacspeak.sf.net/raman/raman-almaden.asc
Received on Thursday, 29 March 2007 18:39:25 GMT

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