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Re: {agenda} HTML WG telcon 2009-04-23

From: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:20:01 +0200
Message-ID: <49F1A061.4060901@gmx.de>
To: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>
CC: public-html-wg-announce@w3.org, 'HTML WG' <public-html@w3.org>
Hi,

Apparently the minutes haven't been announced here. They
are at <http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-minutes.html>, text version 
below:

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                       HTML Weekly Teleconference

23 Apr 2009

    See also: [2]IRC log

       [2] http://www.w3.org/2009/04/23-html-wg-irc

Attendees

    Present
           +1.218.349.aaaa, Sam, annevk, Shepazu, +47.22.60.aabb,
           ChrisWilson, Laura, smedero, MikeSmith, Julian, Masinter,
           LHSilli

    Regrets
           DaveSinger

    Chair
           SamRuby

    Scribe
           annevk

Contents

      * [3]Topics
      * [4]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________



    <MikeSmith> trackbot, start meeting

    <trackbot> Date: 23 April 2009

    <pimpbot> planet: WebKit's week - #8
    <11[5]http://hanblog.info/blog/post/2009/04/23/WebKit-s-week-8>

       [5] http://hanblog.info/blog/post/2009/04/23/WebKit-s-week-8

    <rubys> lets give it 2 more minutes, then cover what we can with the
    people we have, and then call it a week. Agreed?

    rubys, sounds fine

    <MikeSmith> rubys: yeah

    <masinter> i can participate via IRC but can't dial in at the
    moment, sorry

    <MikeSmith> masinter, it will likely be a relatively short call

    <masinter> I had an action item which I can report on; TAG
    discussion on versioning will continue today.

    <scribe> scribe: annevk

    <MikeSmith> action-103?

    <trackbot> ACTION-103 -- Lachlan Hunt to register about: URI scheme
    -- due 2009-04-09 -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [6]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103

       [6] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/103

    ISSUE-54?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-54 -- tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html> --
    OPEN

    <trackbot> [7]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54

       [7] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54

    <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-103 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

    <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-54 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

    SR: What is the status of Lachy on this action?

    AvK: I think he is waiting for the other editor to move ahead (re
    about URLs)

    SR: If we page down we see that more actions are assigned to Lachy

    AvK: dunno about those

    <smedero> Looks like joseph hasn't committed a change to the spec
    since early April:
    [8]http://github.com/josephholsten/about-uri-scheme/commits/master/

       [8] http://github.com/josephholsten/about-uri-scheme/commits/master/

    <pimpbot> Title: Commit History for josephholsten's about-uri-scheme
    - GitHub (at github.com)

    ISSUE-56?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-56 -- Assess whether "URLs" section/definition
    conflicts with Web architecture -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [9]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/56

       [9] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/56

    <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-56 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

    ISSUE-4?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-4 -- HTML Versioning and DOCTYPEs -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [10]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/4

      [10] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/4

    <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-4 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)

    <rubys> larry, care to comment?

    DanC, any updates?

    <masinter> the TAG discussed versioning last week, and is scheduled
    again today

    <rubys> anything else worth reporting on the subject this week?

    <masinter> email threads on www-tag, i think the discussion so far
    looks like it will be productive

    ISSUE-59?

    <trackbot> ISSUE-59 -- Should the HTML WG produce a separate
    document that is a normative language reference and if so what are
    the requirements -- OPEN

    <trackbot> [11]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/59

      [11] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/59

    MS: The actions are still not completed

    SR: New target?

    MS: One week from now

    SR: Ok

    MS: Next week's call

    <masinter> I am out next week, unfortunately

    ACTION-119?

    <trackbot> ACTION-119 -- Michael(tm) Smith to push HTML diffs
    document and HTML5 out for another public draft -- due 2009-04-23 --
    PENDINGREVIEW

    <trackbot> [12]http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/119

      [12] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/119

    MS: I moved it to PENDINGREVIEW since they have now been published;
    that's done

    SR: sounds good
    ... I think that's it for the action items that are due. Did I miss
    any?

    [silence]

    SR: Towards the end of my agenda I listed an outlook to the future.
    Comments?

    <masinter> i'm finally on the phone if there was anything i missed

    <masinter> the schedule is aggressive

    LM: the schedule is aggressive

    CW: although the schedule is aggressive the actions it forces us
    into I'm in favor of
    ... it forces us into the prioritization exercise

    LM: there was a question for me earlier that I wanted to address
    ... the TAG discussion is continuing and I'm open to questions

    DS: Are you guys looking into tests? It's not necessary for LC but
    it's worthwhile to have them.

    SR: Any volunteers?

    CW: Are you asking for a person to organize the test suite or
    writing the tests?

    <MikeSmith> takkaria volunteered to take the lead on managing the
    test suite

    <MikeSmith> dunno if he still has time to do that or not

    SR: Either works fine. I'm personally in favor of not doing anything
    that's not required for which there are no volunteers.

    DS: [...] for which there is a place or framework?

    CW: at some point we need a framework; not a bunch of tests floating
    around the interwebs

    <MikeSmith> takkaria = Andi Sidwell

    CW: we had a person appointed but he was going to be unavailable for
    a couple of months?

    DS: can we create an issue for this?

    MS: he hasn't been around much on IRC so I'm sceptic

    <Philip> takkaria stated (some time ago) that he wouldn't have time
    in the near future for HTML stuff

    <Philip> (Stated in this channel, in particular)

    MS: there was nobody making decisions on frameworks and doing the
    tests

    <Philip> and that it would be sensible to look for someone else to
    do the test stuff

    MS: So I asked takkaria to take the responsibility to decide all the
    basics so we could get started

    AvK: Andi had indeed said on IRC recently that he doesn't have
    enough time

    SR: I commend his honesty

    <Philip> [13]http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20090216#l-267

      [13] http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20090216#l-267

    SR: do you still think it's useful to have an action DS?

    <Philip> # [20:33] <takkaria> news on the testsuite front:

    <Philip> # [20:34] <takkaria> I'm afraid I'm not going to have time
    to do anything with it for a while, so someone else is best taking
    it on

    DS: I don't have enough time.
    ... [missed]

    SR: I hear interest from CW?

    CW: I'm certainly passionate about tests.

    SR: would it be sensible to have a repository where people can throw
    things in?

    CW: we can start there
    ... getting the tests reviewed is hard

    <Philip> There's a CVS repository set up for tests, but people were
    having ideas that it'd be better to put them on Git/Mercurial

    CW: we need to track whether tests have been reviewed
    ... AvK you are actually in the CSS WG talking about this right now

    [I am, yes. It's slightly painful :) ]

    DS: There already is a test repository right?

    <smedero> I thought there were also issues with the software
    licenses that could be used for a test

    MS: yes, fairly trivial

    DS: we can create a tracker product
    ... we can argue about the best way of doing it or we can do
    something with what we have right now
    ... use the review process that we have used for SVG
    ... not ideal, but it's a start; can see what needs changing for
    HTML

    <Philip> [14]http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite has some
    test-related thoughts and links

      [14] http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite

    DS: if I have a body of 10-20 tests I volunteer to start; just to
    get the ball rolling
    ... put together a review process, test repository

    CW: Adrien pointed out some tests recently on local storage and
    cross-document messaging

    <smedero>
    [15]http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/html5.htm

      [15] http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/html5.htm

    CW: they are offered under a license that allows you to do whatever
    you want (same as CSS)

    <smedero> Sees DOM Storage and XDM test on that site

    <masinter> maybe there's some cross-group test?

    <Philip> I think Web Storage is now meant to be handled by the
    WebApps WG?

    <smedero> There's also ARIA test from Microsoft here:
    [16]http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/aria.htm

      [16] http://samples.msdn.microsoft.com/ietestcenter/aria.htm

    <smedero> dunno if there's any cross-over....

    [Scribe misses some discussion here from DS, LM, and CW.]

    LM: Need some coordination maybe. Some tests go beyond the boundary
    of WGs.

    CW: starting with unit testing would be a good idea

    DS: absolutely, but you have to start somewhere
    ... start something up, transform it later

    LM: not so much boundaries, but layers
    ... CSS on top of HTML

    DS: I meant boundaries between technologies

    <Philip> (I think
    [17]http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite#Existing_tests is a fairly
    complete list of current tests for HTML5)

      [17] http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Testsuite#Existing_tests

    [obviously that part isn't minuted in full detail either]

    DS: I'll take an action item on this to be done in two weeks, but I
    won't be here in two weeks.
    ... you can still discuss it because it'll be done

    <Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to say that we do not want to begin
    storing test cases without having them reviewed

    MS: I just wanted to say that we don't want to check in testcases
    without proper review.
    ... It's one thing to take a suite from Microsoft versus taking
    tests from anyone.

    SR: Maybe have a unreviewed folder for those?

    <Philip> MikeSmith, on the other hand it's easier to develop and
    start reviewing test cases when they're organised in a centralised
    repository

    MS: I'd rather have links to remote tests so authors can update the
    tests independently.
    ... We have that for validator.nu too.
    ... Simple JSON structure that points to the various external tests.
    ... Just have a dump of tests without the person feeling responsible
    for fixing them is not too useful.

    <Philip> External tests turn into 404s over time, which doesn't
    sound good

    DS: while I agree with you in principle. I'm not sure I want to
    solve a problem we don't know the bounds of

    MS: fine with me. I'm just talking out of my [missed] here. I just
    want a person that feels responsible and sets it up.

    DS: I think we need a team.

    MS: that's fairly hypothetical.

    DS: I will email saying that this is important. And promise them
    cookies and beer.

    MS: We don't need the first in line. We need someone that is
    committed.

    DS: Maybe someone from the browsers?

    LM: We're trying to get together the plug-in community and figure
    out if we can improve things.
    ... I'm soliciting folks who are interested in pursuing this.
    ... and also [missed]

    <masinter> also thoughts on venue, is this in scope?

    <shepazu>
    [18]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/integration/SVGIntegration.html
    and [19]http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/ref/SVGRef.html

      [18] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/integration/SVGIntegration.html
      [19] http://dev.w3.org/SVG/modules/ref/SVGRef.html

    DS: LM I don't know if this is what you had in mind, but the links
    above are what the SVG WG is working on and I think there is some
    overlap

    <ChrisWilson> I just fwded the info on our test cases to Doug...

    DS: with plug-ins. The first link is how SVG can be integrated by
    reference.
    ... If SVG is included as image or CSS background, etc.
    ... the second spec talks about having the parameters exposed on the
    Window interface of the embedded object
    ... a lot of this stuff is solved for e.g. Flash

    LM: We talked to the people who did the Adobe Flash, Adobe Reader
    plug-ins. We also want to talk to people who do e.g. Java.
    ... requirements such as making the back button work. Cross-domain
    security policies.

    <takkaria> whoever looks at tests might want to look at
    [20]http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Testsuite which I put
    together a few months ago

      [20] http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=Testsuite

    DS: It would be interesting to see what issues you are facing

    LM: I have a preliminary doc

    AvK: how does this affect HTML?

    <takkaria> oh, ignore me, Philip already linked it. my bad

    LM: new HTML features should work with existing content
    ... existing content uses plug-ins; so new features need to interact
    with plug-ins

    SR: anything else?

    JR: I was looking at the @profile issue.
    ... If nothing is done will it be gone from HTML5?

    SR: Yes.

    JR: What will be needed for this not to happen?
    ... [something about a bug]
    ... I'd be in favor of an erratum for HTML4 and a similar fix for
    HTML5

    SR: If there is consensus for a change I'd be in favor, but I'm not
    sure if there is

    <Laura> q

    SR: Anything else?

    LC: does the same hold true for the summary attribute?

    SR: yes
    ... the deadline is not next week, but if something needs to be done
    we do need consensus
    ... anything else?
    ... ok, adjourned

    masinter, the generated minutes exclude /me lines

    someone should prolly fix the minutes up a bit if we think they're
    useful

    e.g. introduce a few topic lines

    usually the topic of discourse was introduced while i was already
    writing things down so there was not really enough time to make it
    all fancy

Summary of Action Items

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [21]scribe.perl version 1.135
     ([22]CVS log)
     $Date: 2009/04/23 17:01:30 $

      [21] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [22] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Received on Friday, 24 April 2009 11:20:48 UTC

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