W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html-ig-zh@w3.org > August 2011

Re: [Bug 10838] New: Make <u> conforming.

From: John Hax <johnhax@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 02:30:36 +0800
Message-ID: <CAEeYXHWYUkwEqUoA_XniCyP9Jz5d28H_pUL_JsMU5tEqQO53WQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Zi Bin Cheah <zibin@opera.com>
Cc: (wrong string) 樂會ML <public-html-ig-zh@w3.org>, "KangHao Lu (Kenny)" <kennyluck@csail.mit.edu>
老贴顶上来。

我发现现在HTML的spec里加上了U标签,用法是:

The u<http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/text-level-semantics.html#the-u-element>element
represents<http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#represents>a
span of text with an unarticulated, though explicitly rendered,
non-textual annotation, such as labeling the text as being a proper name in
Chinese text (a Chinese proper name mark), or labeling the text as being
misspelt.

有谁知道这个U是怎么又加上去的?

老实说,我不认为专名号是一个足够支持U的case,因为专名号太罕用,如果真的有专名号需求,用<b class="pn">或<a
href="#dfn_xxx">基本可以满足。况且现在U又不完全等同于专名号——拼错的字也用U……

结果是,U这个标签很可能成为一个奇特的鸡肋——和过往一样,所有出现U的地方其实大多是误用……

2010/10/1 John Hax <johnhax@gmail.com>

> 我也赞同,u的问题太多,还是b比较靠谱。
>
> 当然HTML标签的名字其实都含有西方习惯(如b源自bold,而中文专名号和bold没啥关系,又如hr的原意是水平分割,可是对于竖排文本当然应该是垂直分割),这事儿也是没办法的。
>
>
> 2010/10/1 Zi Bin Cheah <zibin@opera.com>
>
>>
>> On Sep 30, 2010, at 5:31 PM, Yuan Chao wrote:
>>
>>  2010/9/30 Ethan Chen <chief@ethantw.net>
>>>
>>> 最後一項是讓相鄰兩專名底下的專名號不相連,@個作法有點問題,最好的方式如下圖,文字間沒有任何間隔,底線卻有:
>>>
>>> @張圖是 Yahoo 注音輸入法的標詞功能,方便我們選字用的。我覺得@應該是瀏覽器實作 underline 的問題,Yahoo
>>> 做得出來瀏覽器也該做得出來。是不是有列入標準的可能呢?
>>>
>>
>>
>> 几种可能性
>>
>> 1。用 <b>
>> Ethan提到<b>比<mark>更合适,因为mark带有强调作用
>>
>> 2。新标签
>> 大家是否知道日韩那边有没有这样的请求?
>>
>> 更简单的问以下,大家觉得网上使用的可能性会多吗?还是书名号使用究竟还是边缘的case?
>>
>>
>>
>>  @點很有意義,標專名號的目的,就是要幫助分辨名詞斷詞的部份。英文的word是靠空白間隔,
>>> 漢字就得靠「經驗」跟標點符號了。要是拿CSS來做,可以靠增加字間距的方式?
>>> 我也覺得還是應該要列入標準當中。
>>>
>>> 所以另一個討論串中,拿空白來分隔英文,其實是以西文的思維來處理?
>>> (個人也是偏好目前辦公室軟體的做法)
>>>
>>>  同时请教一下,现在标点符号的标准用法是ruby吗?
>>>>
>>> 你指的是「文字標註音標」嗎?
>>> @是指用ruby畫專名號跟書名號嗎?
>>>
>>
>> 只是突然想到ruby负责标符号,那它也能不能标书名号?不过又好象没有牵扯到。。。
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 在 Sep 30, 2010 6:26 PM 時, Zi Bin Cheah 寫到:
>>>
>>>  专名号在大马算是没人用,大陆那边应该也少用。可能港台教科书有用,电纸书盛行也可能会推动使用率。
>>>>
>>>> Ian拒绝用<u>语义化来用专名号其实我本人觉得是对的。试想想现在大家脑子里一看到<U>就想到underline,
>>>> 重新教育有多难,而且大家都会继续滥用。
>>>>
>>>> 当然这没有解决专名号的需求。我想到的一个方法是用mark然后用CSS去underline它。不晓得这个方法实际吗?
>>>>
>>>> 同时请教一下,现在标点符号的标准用法是ruby吗?
>>>>
>>>> On Sep 30, 2010, at 1:46 AM, KangHao Lu (Kenny) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  說明一下、、@算是對之前專名號的討論[1]做的回應,總之就是希望HTML5標準書至少不會把<u>放在「不合標準的標籤」[2]
>>>>> 而至少放在「將被拋棄但是合標準」[3]。很抱歉沒先在@個郵件群組得到共識,但是從10/1開始回報標準錯誤的過程會進入下一個階段所以我至少希望@個議題在@個時候被拿出來討論一下。我目前的看法是
>>>>>
>>>>> - 加一個新標籤(像是<pn>之類的)真的很不可能
>>>>> - 用<a>或<a href>(屬性沒值)是一種濫用
>>>>> - <span class="pn"> 還是有點太長了
>>>>> -
>>>>> Mike跟我講說<i>留下來的很大原因是因為西方會用斜體標船名,總不能發明一個<ship>吧。所以<u>是比較實在的,而且也不少人支持把<u>拿回來。
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 總之@個議題處理的狀況都會CC到@個列表啦,如果@個提案被回絕了大家也多多瞭解@個HTML5編輯Ian
>>>>> Hickson是怎麼做事的吧。議題回報裡我也提到了之前的討論(三年前了、、),有些為什麼<u>不見了但是<b><i>回來了的原因(主要就是<u>跟超連結的混亂問題)。不過那時候都沒什麼人提到專名號所以@次就順便提了一提啦!
>>>>>
>>>>> 歡迎大家用HTML5 Bug Tracker的時候CC到@邊來。
>>>>>
>>>>> 有空再多介紹一些HTML5的名人吧(像是Bug裡提到的Apple的Maciej[5])
>>>>>
>>>>> [1]
>>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-ig-zh/2010Aug/threadl#msg184
>>>>> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#non-conforming-features
>>>>> [3]
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-conforming-features
>>>>> [4]
>>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268
>>>>> [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maciej_Stachowiak
>>>>>
>>>>> 此致
>>>>>
>>>>> Kenny
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2010/09/30, at 8:06, bugzilla@jessica.w3.org wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10838
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        Summary: Make <u> conforming.
>>>>>>        Product: HTML WG
>>>>>>        Version: unspecified
>>>>>>       Platform: PC
>>>>>>            URL:
>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/obsolete.html#obsolete-but-
>>>>>>                 conforming-features
>>>>>>     OS/Version: All
>>>>>>         Status: NEW
>>>>>>       Severity: major
>>>>>>       Priority: P3
>>>>>>      Component: HTML5 spec (editor: Ian Hickson)
>>>>>>     AssignedTo: ian@hixie.ch
>>>>>>     ReportedBy: kennyluck@w3.org
>>>>>>      QAContact: public-html-bugzilla@w3.org
>>>>>>             CC: mike@w3.org, public-html-wg-issue-tracking@w3.org,
>>>>>>                 public-html@w3.org, public-i18n-cjk@w3.org,
>>>>>>                 public-html-ig-zh@w3.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This was discussed in a long thread[1] three years ago. There was no
>>>>>> consensus
>>>>>> and no response from the editor, but since some people like Maciej
>>>>>> think we can
>>>>>> make <u> at least conforming[2], I would like to raise this bug to
>>>>>> catch the
>>>>>> editor's attention.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Proper name mark, in Chinese [3] is a use case that was slightly
>>>>>> mentioned in
>>>>>> the thread (see also an example picture[4]). The purpose of this mark
>>>>>> is to
>>>>>> highlight *every* proper noun in some text to help the reader break
>>>>>> words,
>>>>>> cause Chinese people don't use spaces for word breaking. Although it
>>>>>> is no
>>>>>> longer popular recently, proper name mark is still used in some
>>>>>> textbooks in
>>>>>> Taiwan (esp. children's Chinese textbook) and Hong Kong. Because the
>>>>>> purpose
>>>>>> and frequency of using "proper name mark" in a piece of text is
>>>>>> similar to code
>>>>>> highlighting, I personally don't think it's appropriate to use <mark>
>>>>>> for this
>>>>>> purpose since the spec says "This (<mark>) is separate from syntax
>>>>>> highlighting, for which span is more appropriate." But then <span
>>>>>> class="pn">
>>>>>> is probably too long. This is not yet a very prevalent use case
>>>>>> because proper
>>>>>> name marks are often used in combination with vertical text and
>>>>>> vertical text
>>>>>> is not yet popular on the Web.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While I do strongly agree that an underlined text which is not a
>>>>>> hyperlink
>>>>>> confuses the user in his/her browsing experience, there are HTML user
>>>>>> agents
>>>>>> for which browsing the Web isn't the main purpose and hence the user
>>>>>> might not
>>>>>> get confused. e-book readers are such examles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/thread#msg268
>>>>>> [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Dec/0307
>>>>>> [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_name_mark
>>>>>> [4] http://www.go8.com.tw/files/4168%200004.jpg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Configure bugmail:
>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
>>>>>> ------- You are receiving this mail because: -------
>>>>>> You are on the CC list for the bug.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Zi Bin Cheah / 谢子斌
>>>>
>>>> Web Evangelist
>>>> / Developer Relations / Site Compatibility / Products Group /
>>>>
>>>> Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
>>>> + 47 23 69 25 81 / twitter: zibin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best regards,
>>> Yuan Chao
>>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Zi Bin Cheah / 谢子斌
>>
>> Web Evangelist
>> / Developer Relations / Site Compatibility / Products Group /
>>
>> Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
>> + 47 23 69 25 81 / twitter: zibin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Received on Friday, 5 August 2011 18:31:07 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Tuesday, 6 January 2015 20:43:49 UTC