RE: DIALOG v. DL??

Ian,

Thanks for your response.  The point I was trying to make is that
<dialog> is still making an association.  It associates (A) what is said
with (B) the person who said it.  The fact it uses <dt> and <dd>, the
same inner elements as <dl>, is evidence enough of that.  I was
suggesting that definition list had been confusingly specified in the
first place, and more clearly specifying an association list (either by
adjusting the specification for <dl> or by creating a replacement
element such as <al>) could better serve all purposes, including marking
up dialogue.

Cheers,
Emma



-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Hickson [mailto:ian@hixie.ch] 
Sent: 30 August 2009 22:59
To: Emma Pratt
Cc: public-html-comments@w3.org
Subject: Re: DIALOG v. DL??

On Fri, 21 Aug 2009, Emma Pratt wrote:
>
> Someone recently pointed out the <dialog> element, which is part of
the 
> current HTML5 specification.  I understand the usefulness of elements 
> that can mark-up a conversation thread, but doesn't corrupting <dl>
just 
> further muddy things?

The reason for introducing a new element is precisely to avoid
corrupting 
<dl> at all.


> I'm aware definition lists were rather loosely specified in HTML4,
which 
> has lead to all sorts of debate on their usage among developers, but 
> wouldn't it be better to have a more generic way of coding a list of 
> associated items rather than a multitude of context specific elements?

I'm not really sure what you mean. <dialog> isn't related to <dl>.

   <dl>
    <dt>A
    <dt>B
    <dd>1
    <dd>2
    <dt>C
    <dd>3
   </dl>

...associates A and B with 1 and 2, and C with 3.

<dialog> is for marking up dialogue, and is unrelated to <dl>.


> During our recent discussion, someone suggested having an association 
> list.  This could handle glossaries, dialog, and a whole range of
other 
> types of association... although I don't think such lists should
replace 
> a sensible heading structure, just as definition lists shouldn't have.

I don't think a dialog and a glossary are equivalent at all. <dl> is the

element for assocation lists. <dialog> is for conversations.
Conversations 
aren't association lists.


> Here are some potential examples (using association list - al, list
item
> - li, association term - at, association data - ad):
> 
> <h2>Coder's Glossary</h2>
> <al>
>  <li>
>   <at>HTML</at>
>   <ad>Hyper-Text Markup Language</ad>
>   <ad>predominent markup language for web pages</ad>
>  </li>
>  <li>
>   <at>element</at>
>   <at>tag</at>
>   <ad>basic components for code markup</ad>
>  </li>
> </al>

You can do that today:

   <h2>Coder's Glossary</h2>
   <dl>
    <dt>HTML</dt>
    <dd>Hyper-Text Markup Language</dd>
    <dd>predominent markup language for web pages</dd>
    <dt>element</dt>
    <dt>tag</dt>
    <dd>basic components for code markup</dd>
   </dl>


> <h2>Conversation</h2>
> <al>
>  <li>
>   <at>Emma</at>
>   <ad>Why didn't you specify an association list?</ad>
>  </li>
>  <li>
>   <at>W3.org</at>
>   <at>...</ad>
>  </li>
> </al>

You can do that in HTML5:

   <h2>Conversation</h2>
   <dialog>
    <dt>Emmo</dt>
    <dd>Why didn't you specify an association list?</dd>
    <dt>W3.org</dt>
    <dd>We did</dd>
   </dialog>


> <h2>Weekly Weather Forecast</h2>
> <al>
>  <li>
>   <at>Monday</at>
>   <ad><img />Sunshine</ad>
>  </li>
>  <li>
>   <at>Tuesday</at>
>   <ad><img />Sunshine</ad>
>  </li>
>  <li>
>   <at>Wednesday</at>
>   <ad><img />Sunshine</ad>
>  </li>
>  <li>
>   <at>Thursday</at>
>   <ad><img />Sunshine</ad>
>  </li>
>  <li>
>   <at>Friday</at>
>   <ad><img />Sunshine</ad>
>  </li>
> </al>

   <h2>Weekly Weather Forecast</h2>
   <dl>
    <dt>Monday</dt>
    <dd><img src="sun.png" alt=""> Sunshine</dd>
    <dt>Tueday</dt>
    <dd><img src="sun.png" alt=""> Sunshine</dd>
    <dt>Wednesday</dt>
    <dd><img src="sun.png" alt=""> Sunshine</dd>
    <dt>Thursday</dt>
    <dd><img src="sun.png" alt=""> Sunshine</dd>
    <dt>Friday</dt>
    <dd><img src="sun.png" alt=""> Sunshine</dd>
   </dl>

Cheers,
-- 
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/
This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated.
If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system.
Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately.
Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received.
Further communication will signify your consent to this.

Received on Thursday, 3 September 2009 10:32:49 UTC