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[Bug 12325] Consequences of <table role=presentation> (layout tables)

From: <bugzilla@jessica.w3.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 07:03:39 +0000
To: public-html-bugzilla@w3.org
Message-Id: <E1Q07FD-0006y2-37@jessica.w3.org>
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12325

--- Comment #3 from Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no> 2011-03-17 07:03:38 UTC ---
(In reply to comment #2)

> So, <th>, <tbody>, <thead>, <tfoot> etc. all disappear when mapping to
> accessibility API as these are considered required owned elements.

Likewise <table> disappears if one applies role=spinbutton. But it is still
forbidden per the decision made on ISSUE-129 to do <h1 role=spinbutton>.
Because it is meaningles to use that way. I have not claimed that it does not
disappear - I have not used that kind of justification.

> Furthermore, platform accessibility APIs to date throw away tbody altogether

You mentioned above as well, that <tbody> "disappears" - I suppose "throw away"
means the same.

> I am not sure what it means to be a legacy AT. However, JAWS is what I consider
> to be a legacy AT and who supports ARIA.

This is what I said, quote: "ARIA-unaware legacy AT". I guess I could delete
"legacy" and just say "ARIA-unaware AT".

I've learned in public-html that even AT without ARIA support, discern between
layout tables and data tables. I have also been told in the HTML wg that AT is
updated at a much slower rate than other computer software.

> role="presentation" is applied to
> within Dojo and it does not have a problem with <th>, etc.

My argument was not built on any assumption that <th> would be a problem for
ARIA supporting AT. Please reread what I said.

> When you apply a role on top of elements that are deemed presentational the
> assume the new role.

I do not understand how you could fail to notice that I was fully aware of
this. In Comment #0 I said:  'role=presentation is inherited by table's
"Required Owned childen"'

> so, I am having difficulty seeing the issue you are trying to raise. The ARIA
> spec. is clear.

In this bug reports, I have not complained about ARIA's clarity. 

As I enumerated 4 points, I have difficulty know what you refer to.

You see this from ARIA's point of view and from AT's point of view. I built an
argument from author's point of view and legacy AT point of view (which I now
for 2nd time have defined the meaning of). I also brought it how layout tables
usually look like - as even data tables tend to not use <th>, I believe this is
even more the case for layout tables.

Btw, under 3) I took up this problem, which from ARIA's point of view, should
be OK: <table role="presentation"><tr><td role=heading>Lorem</tr></table>.

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