W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html-a11y@w3.org > February 2014

Re: Systematic approach to layout table heuristics

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 18:21:27 +0000
Message-ID: <CA+ri+VkLbzHBWi8TkQ2aA8FusJDSv+dSTn7EivBucus+H7GS0Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
Cc: HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Firefox
IsProbablyForLayout
http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/ident?i=IsProbablyForLayout



--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>


On 21 February 2014 10:19, Leif Halvard Silli <
xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no> wrote:

> After filing bug 24679 [1], which suggests to add more features to the
> list of "possible indicators"[2] for layout tables vs non-layout
> tables, I was asked to provide data for the proposals. But how should
> one go about providing data?
>
> Web data is of what ultimately matters. But when identifying possible
> indicators, it seems that knowing what features AT actually use for
> discerning between layout and non-layout tables, would give us a good
> shortlist of candidate indicators. Secondly, if we can spot some trends
> in the (hopefully correct) data we already have, then that - as well -
> could help us identify candidates.
>
> Today, its appears possible to glean following trends in the spec:
>
> 1) Conformance, completeness amd semantics indicate non-layout
>    usage. The spec lists borders via CSS or @border=1, <th>,
>    <thead>, <caption>, @headers, @scope.
> 2) Non-conforming ways to disable borders (border=0/cellspacing=0
>    cellpadding=0) plus role=presentation indicate layout usage.
> 3) @summary is "not a good indicator" (this is probably based
>    *both* on Web data *and* AT behavior analysis
>
>    Trends & AT data applied to: table@border
>
> To me, HTML5's table over "possible indicators" of (non-)layout usage,
> seems correct, but not complete. However, in bug 24678,[3] Steve asks
> for data about *one* non-layout indicator, namely border=1. But which
> data? Web data? Assistive technology data? The fact that VoiceOver +
> Safari matches spec w.r.t. borders as non-layout indication, ought to
> put it on the shortlist of non-layout features. In another, somewhat
> related, bug, Steve indicated that web data did not support that
> table@border=1 indicates data tables.[4] My own toe dipping into same
> pool told me the opposite.
>
>    Trends & AT data applied to: <colgroup> with <col/> children.
>
> It seems in line with the conformance & completeness trend that
> VoiceOver+Safari treats <colgroup> with <col/> children[*] as indicator
> of non-layout usage. What do other ATs do? What does Web data say?
> Should the spec change accordingly? (PS: I know one HTML generator
> which, for layout tables in XHTML1/HTML4, uses cellpadding=0
> cellspacing=0, but which for HTML5 removes cellpadding/cellspacing and
> *adds* <colgroup> with children, with bad results in VoiceOver as
> result.)
>
>    Trends & AT data applied to: lack of cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0[*]
>
> Is it risky to delete cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0 from a table?
> Could it cause an AT to treat a layout table, as a non-layout table?
> This question seems relevant since authors are probably simply deleting
> these attributes without adding @role=presentation in their place.
>
>    Trends & AT data applied to: presence of sortable attribute
>
> This is good candidate based on its strong link to data tables - it is
> a semantic feature. But is is also possible to take the view that we
> need implementation and usage before putting into the spec.
>
> Finally: How important are heuristics for identifying data tables? Does
> the situation remind about how UAs detect quirks vs no-quirks? (Except
> in XHTML and @srcdocs (other exceptions?), no-quirks is triggered when
> UAs detect a DOCTYPE that meets certain conformance and completeness
> criteria.)
>
> [1] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24679
> [2]
>
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/tabular-data.html#the-table-element
> [3] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24678
> [4] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=24647#c7
> [*] I did not check omitting <col/> child or omitting parent <colgroup>
> --
> leif halvard silli
Received on Saturday, 22 February 2014 18:22:36 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.3.1 : Wednesday, 7 January 2015 15:05:37 UTC