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Re: UNS: RE: UNS: WCAG considering amending F65 to NOT fail missing ALT text if title or aria-label is present

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:31:36 +0000
Message-ID: <CA+ri+VnvQzxdWe1vd1QDCWFtge1jWX6AytmVGkC5dacxumKQcQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, WCAG WG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, kirsten@can-adapt.com
Hi Janina,

I accept there's a technicality here regarding HTML
> validation that makes no judgement whatsoever about accessibility.


Accessibility advocates argued for 5+ years in the html wg against the
loosening of the requirements on alt in HTML. It was all about
accessibility.

--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>


On 25 November 2013 01:58, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> wrote:

> I don't believe your analysis is correct. These are not the opposing
> viewpoints. They address separate concerns. While I don't claim to
> fully understand what the HTML-WG means by "layering violations," or why
> those
> are a concern, I accept there's a technicality here regarding HTML
> validation that makes no judgement whatsoever about accessibility.
>
> Perhaps you and others may have been perplexed by James Craig response
> to your first posting on this topic this past Friday? His was the first
> response to your post, and basically says the same as I understand what
> he wrote:
>
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Nov/0053.html
>
> PS: The 2009 WAI Guidance document was not a product of the HTML-A11Y
> Task Force as that TF had not yet been created. The document came from a
> special TF that was formed to address the specific question of what HTML
> should do regarding alternative text, short and long. The TF in which
> both you and I participate today was formed later in 2009. The TF that
> created the document cited disbanded once the document was accepted by
> the several WAI working groups and published.
>
> Janina
>
> David MacDonald writes:
> > I have no desire to open an old debate.  But unless I’ve missed
> something HTML5 A11y TF 2009 resolution and a 2013 A11Y bug response seem
> to be in conflict....
> >
> >  http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5.html
> >
> > allows aria-labelledby as secondary...
> >
> >
> >
> > A bug against HTML5 seems to have the A11Y TF taking the opposite
> position. Unless I’ve missed something.
> >
> >  <https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6496>
> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6496
> >
> >
> >
> > I am willing to go back to WCAG with either response ... I just want to
> know where the task force is ... if it is not important to the TF, I can go
> back with that also.
> >
> >
> >
> > If possible I would like WCAG and HTML5 to be consistent with each other.
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > David MacDonald
> >
> >
> >
> > CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
> >
> > Tel:  613.235.4902
> >
> >  <http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
> http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100
> >
> >  <http://www.can-adapt.com/> www.Can-Adapt.com
> >
> >
> >
> >   Adapting the web to all users
> >
> >             Including those with disabilities
> >
> >
> >
> > This e-mail originates from CanAdapt Solutions Inc. Any distribution,
> use or copying of this e-mail or the information it contains by other than
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> >
> >
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> Je vous remercie de votre collaboration.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Sailesh Panchang [mailto:spanchang02@yahoo.com]
> > Sent: November 24, 2013 10:23 AM
> > To: Steve Faulkner
> > Cc: HTML Accessibility Task Force; WCAG WG;
> public-comments-wcag20@w3.org; Gregg Vanderheiden; Janina Sajka
> > Subject: Re: UNS: WCAG considering amending F65 to NOT fail missing ALT
> text if title or aria-label is present
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello Steve, I'm saying I disagree with the use of ARIA  for plain
>  images that are not user Interface elementsHello Steve, I'm saying I
> disagree with the use of ARIA  for plain  images that are not user
> Interface elements
> >
> > Sailesh---
> >
> > Sent from my iPad ... Please pardon "dictapos" and typos ... <grin>
> >
> >
> > On Nov 24, 2013, at 5:15 AM, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi sailesh,
> >
> > what are you saying here?
> >
> > that you disagree with making it OK to use aria-label etc in place of
> alt on an image?
> > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2013Nov/0052.html
> >
> > if so then we are in aggreement
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > SteveF
> >
> > HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
> >
> >
> >
> > On 24 November 2013 03:08, Sailesh Panchang <spanchang02@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Steve,
> >
> > 1. Some advance the text alternative computation logic in the ARIA specs
> as the chief motivation for attributes other than the alt for images,
> specifically the aria-labelledby and title.
> > I find it difficult to accept that viewpoint for  reasons noted  in my
> post:
> > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2013OctDec/0115.html
> >
> > 2. As one might expect, developers rely on automated validation checkers
> to validate pages  as suggested by techniques G134, H88 to ensure
> compliance with SC 4.1.1 (A).
> > While only a subset of validation rules apply for this SC, most
> developers will not be able to or do not have bandwidth to do the fine
> tuning as required for this SC and will simply aim for full validation as
> the intent to the SC suggests that content which is 'created according to
> the rules defined in the formal grammar for that technology' is a good
> thing to ensure interoperability and robust browser/AT support.
> > So now if one says 'disregard validation errors for absence of alt
> attribute, confusion will be rife.
> > Usefulness of the validation checkers too will be questioned.
> > Above all, it is not good for the WG to say'it is fine if one introduces
> certain types of validation issues into the code'.
> >
> > Thanks and regards,
> >
> > Sailesh Panchang
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> >
> > On Sat, 11/23/13, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >  Subject: Re: UNS: WCAG considering amending F65 to NOT fail missing ALT
> text  if title or aria-label is present
> >
> >  To: "David MacDonald" <david100@sympatico.ca>, "HTML Accessibility
> Task Force" <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, "WCAG WG" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>,
> public-comments-wcag20@w3.org, "Gregg Vanderheiden" <gv@trace.wisc.edu>,
> kirsten@can-adapt.com
> >  Date: Saturday, November 23, 2013, 3:39 AM
> >
> >
> >  Hi Janina,
> >  Over time and due to experience and understanding, consensus
> >  positions change. This document is a useful historical
> >  reference, but does not represent the current (lack of)
> >  consensus position on the issue.
> >
> >
> >
> >  --
> >
> >  Regards
> >
> >  SteveF
> >  HTML
> >  5.1
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  On 22 November 2013
> >  23:54, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
> >  wrote:
> >
> >
> >  David:
> >
> >
> >
> >  As a point of information, the wider WAI community has
> >  already expressed
> >
> >  a view on this. We did so back in 2009, after almost a year
> >  of teleconferences nd
> >
> >  email discussions by way of presenting a coherent approach
> >  to the
> >
> >  HTML-WG.
> >
> >
> >
> >  The document we produced is entitled, "WAI CG Consensus
> >  Resolutions on
> >
> >  Text alternatives in HTML 5," and is available at:
> >
> >
> >
> >  http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5.html
> >
> >
> >
> >  So, while it's always good to revisit old thinking, it
> >  should not be
> >
> >  forgotten that we've already covered this ground, and
> >  that we covered it
> >
> >  quite extensively.
> >
> >
> >
> >  Janina
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  David MacDonald writes:
> >
> >  > On behalf of the WCAG working group, I have an action
> >  item to solicit
> >
> >  > responses from the wider community regarding a proposed
> >  amendment to WCAG
> >
> >  > failure technique F65 regarding missing ALT. Currently;
> >  if an <img> element
> >
> >  > is missing from an ALT attribute the page fails WCAG SC
> >  1.1.1 Level A. Some
> >
> >  > are proposing that we allow authors to use the
> >  aria-label, aria-labelledby,
> >
> >  > and title attributes INSTEAD of ALT.
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  > So under the amended failure technique NONE of the
> >  following would fail
> >
> >  > WCAG:
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  > <img src="../images/giraffe.jpg"
> >  title="Giraffe grazing on tree branches"/>
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  > <img src="../images/giraffe.jpg"
> >  aria-label="Giraffe grazing on tree
> >
> >  > branches"/>
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  > <img src="../images/giraffe.jpg"
> >  aria-labelledby="123"/>
> >
> >  > <p id="123"> Giraffe grazing on tree
> >  branches</p>
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  > As you can imagine there are strong opinions all around
> >  on this so I
> >
> >  > suggested we get a sense of what other groups such as
> >  the HTML5 A11y TF and
> >
> >  > PF think.
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  > Those in favour of the change provide the following
> >  rational:
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  > --These alternatives on the img element work in
> >  assistive technology
> >
> >  > --The aria spec says these attributes should get an
> >  accessible NAME in the
> >
> >  > API
> >
> >  > http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#textalternativecomputation
> >
> >  > --They say it's easy to teach beginner programmers
> >  to just always use an
> >
> >  > aria label on everything, rather than requiring a label
> >  on form fields and
> >
> >  > alt on images
> >
> >  > --They feel as a failure F65 is very strong if fails a
> >  page for missing ALT,
> >
> >  > especially if other things work, and they would like to
> >  soften it to allow
> >
> >  > other things that work.
> >
> >  > --html 5 allows a <figure><legend>
> >  combination instead of alt, so they feel
> >
> >  > WCAG will have to change F65 anyway to allow a figure
> >  with a legend, and
> >
> >  > that helps open the door to this discussion
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  > Those in favour of the status quo (which fails missing
> >  alt text) provide the
> >
> >  > following rational:
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  > --aria-label, labelledby and title, are not really
> >  suitable attributes for
> >
> >  > img alternative text because they implies a label or
> >  title, rather than an
> >
> >  > alternate text, so it is not a semantic equivalent
> >
> >  > --title is not well supported
> >
> >  > --some feel that the aria spec is not in any way
> >  suggesting these as
> >
> >  > replacements to ALT.
> >
> >  > --aria instructs authors to use native html where
> >  possible, and they could
> >
> >  > not come up with viable use cases of omitting alt text
> >
> >  > --there are hundreds of millions of dollars invested in
> >  current evaluation
> >
> >  > tools, and methodologies, and this would represent a
> >  major departure from
> >
> >  > one of the most basic accessibility convention, that is
> >  almost as old as the
> >
> >  > web and is the "rock star" of accessibility
> >
> >  > --it could cost a lot of money to change guidance to
> >  developers etc..., and
> >
> >  > muddy the waters on a very efficient current evaluation
> >  mechanism
> >
> >  > --when the figure/legend is supported by AT we can
> >  amend F65 but that is a
> >
> >  > different issue and the semantics of this construct are
> >  OK for text
> >
> >  > alternatives, rather than the label/labelledby/title
> >  options
> >
> >  > --it may cause some confidence problems to WCAG
> >  legislation, because it
> >
> >  > represents a strong loosening to a fundamental Success
> >  Criteria, an
> >
> >  > unnecessary change that doesn't help the cause of
> >  accessibility, but just
> >
> >  > complicates things
> >
> >  > --ALT is better supported and the text appears when
> >  images are turned off.
> >
> >  > --initial twitter feedback from the community is
> >  strongly against changing
> >
> >  > this failure
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  > There are probably other reasons on both sides which we
> >  hope to hear ... but
> >
> >  > these should start it off. Please give your opinions
> >  and reasons.
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  > Current technique here:
> >
> >  > http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG-TECHS/F65.html
> >
> >  > Proposed failure here (see test procedure)
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  > Cheers,
> >
> >  > David MacDonald
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  > CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
> >
> >  > Tel:  613.235.4902
> >
> >  > http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100
> >
> >  > www.Can-Adapt.com
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  >   Adapting the web to all users
> >
> >  >             Including those with
> >  disabilities
> >
> >  >
> >
> >  >
> >
> >
> >
> >  --
> >
> >
> >
> >  Janina Sajka,   Phone:  +1.443.300.2200 <tel:%2B1.443.300.2200>
> >
> >                          sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net <mailto:
> sip%3Ajanina@asterisk.rednote.net>
> >
> >                  Email:  janina@rednote.net
> >
> >
> >
> >  Linux Foundation Fellow
> >
> >  Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:       http://a11y.org
> >
> >
> >
> >  The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility
> >  Initiative (WAI)
> >
> >  Chair,  Protocols & Formats     http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
> >
> >          Indie UI                        http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka,   Phone:  +1.443.300.2200
>                         sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net
>                 Email:  janina@rednote.net
>
> Linux Foundation Fellow
> Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:       http://a11y.org
>
> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> Chair,  Protocols & Formats     http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
>         Indie UI                        http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/
>
>
Received on Monday, 25 November 2013 08:32:45 UTC

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