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Re: CfC: Close ISSUE-206: meta-generator by Amicable Resolution

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 08:39:12 +0100
Message-ID: <CA+ri+Vmdxsi9TuF-axUXi6EQ6sYZCX5GkHf2d7Fi1Td62w+5EQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Michael[tm] Smith" <mike@w3.org>
Cc: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi>, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>, "Edward O'Connor" <eoconnor@apple.com>, "public-html@w3.org WG" <public-html@w3.org>, HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Hi all,
I will support this concept/proposal, but think it needs some tweaking

I think the use of an attribute with a more expressive and less easy
to misunderstand name is useful. aka something along the lines of that
proposed by hixie.
So suggest that the attribute name be changed.

a suggestion "important-image-content-published-with-no-text-alternative"

I also think it is important to make it crystal clear in the spec text
under what circumstances the attribute can be used.
"The attribute MUST only be used by automated HTML generation software
that offers no opportunity for authors to provide a text alternative.
It MUST not be used by WYSIWYG or any other HTML editing software.
Note: Software that does not provide authors with the ability to add a
text alternative to an image is not considered an accessible HTML
editing tool [ATAG 2.0]"

Also that the attribute ONLY represents the presence of an image
containing information not otherwise provided in the document.
aka "A key part of the content" [1]

I consider that this would make it a useful addition for assistive
technology to disambiguate between what is currently referred to in
the spec as an image "A key part of the content" but does not have an
alt provided and the case where an alt is simply not provided which
does not provide any information as to its importance. In this way AT
can inform the user of the presence of the image "important image!"
and attempt heuristics if desired.

[1] http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/the-img-element.html#a-key-part-of-the-content


On 2 August 2012 08:04, Michael[tm] Smith <mike@w3.org> wrote:
> Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi>, 2012-08-02 09:17 +0300:
>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 1:03 AM, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> wrote:
>> > Ted (Mike, Henri, others):
>> >
>> > Is there any possibility of merging this proposal with the "Mint a new
>> > attribute for relaxing alt attribute conformance criteria in certain
>> > situations" proposal:
>> >
>> > http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/User:Eoconnor/ISSUE-206
>> >
>> > Yes, there are clear differences (they even are enumerated in Laura's
>> > updated proposal), but it appears to me that these two proposals are
>> > relatively close in spirit.  The essential difference (other than spelling)
>> > appears to be the default?
>> The default validator behavior is the whole point of Ted's proposal,
>> so merging "If a conformance checker encounters an <img> element with
>> an incomplete attribute specified, it should by default report it.
>> However, it may supply an option to suppress such an error." from
>> Laura's proposal would defeat the whole point of Ted's proposal. As
>> for the name of the attribute, any of "incomplete", "relaxed" or
>> "noalt" would work for me. (Other names might be sensible, too.)
>> I don't really see the point of Laura's proposal. If the default was
>> to report the presence of the "incomplete" attribute, the validator
>> might as well reports the absence of the alt attribute instead. As far
>> as I can tell, with the default behavior Laura is proposing, then the
>> attribute would be redundant.
> Here's a proposal for a compromise that might allow the two CPs to be merged:
>   A. Add a "Show error messages for img elements with "incomplete" attributes.
>   B. Make that option off (unchecked) by default.
>   C. Make the default validator behavior be that if a document contains any
>      instances of img elements that have the relaxed/incomplete attribute
>      (or whatever the name ends up as), emit a single warning per document:
>        Warning: This document contains at least one "incomplete" attribute,
>        which indicates it may have images that lack text alternatives. To
>        see error messages showing the locations of those images, use the
>        "Show error messages for img elements with "incomplete" option.
>    That would ensure that users are always alerted to the presence of the
>    attribute, by being shown that warning message. But the warning message
>    is show only once per document, instead of the dozens of times or
>    hundreds of times or whatever the error messages will otherwise be shown.
>   D. Make the default validator behavior by that errors for the "incomplete"
>      attribute are not shown. But because of C above, the users will still
>      be made aware that the document has potential problems -- they will
>      still by default always see that one Warning message.
> Please consider this proposal carefully. I recognize it's not perfect.
> We're not going to find a perfect solution to this problem. But given how
> close the two CPs are to one another otherwise, I think this proposal to
> merge them with the default behaviors is something we have a chance of
> getting agreement about, if everybody can give ground just a little.
>   --Mike
> --
> Michael[tm] Smith http://people.w3.org/mike

with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Thursday, 2 August 2012 07:40:26 UTC

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