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Text Subteam Minutes for 10 April

From: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 14:44:42 -0400
To: HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Message-ID: <20120410184442.GE4718@sonata.rednote.net>
Minutes from the HTML-A11Y Text Subteam teleconference of 10 April are provided below in text and are available as hypertext at:



                                                           - DRAFT -

                                          HTML-A11Y Text Alternatives Sub-Team Meeting

10 Apr 2012

   See also: IRC log


          John_Foliot, Janina, Leif, David_MacDonald, Judy, Laura_Carlson


          janina, David


     * Topics
         1. updates on this week's coordination with HTML WG Co-Chairs
         2. alt bugs: update on HTML5 in-spec alt guidance bugs--gathering, explaining, rechecking whole doc
         3. buggy alts: update on checking alt texts in HTML5 spec itself
         4. issue 204: re-alignment of HTML5 spec text about ARIA with actual ARIA provisions
         5. longdesc... discussion convoluted, complicated, but in the discussions, people are coming up with creative
            ideas on what it could do
     * Summary of Action Items

   <janina> scribe: janina

updates on this week's coordination with HTML WG Co-Chairs

   jb: Reviewing today's agenda ...
   ... We met with chairs again ...
   ... Also want to coordinate with individuals here, Leif, perhaps Laura, if she's able to join at some point
   ... John, re 204 before John needs to leave ...
   ... Metaname ...
   ... Want to be sure to mention that I'm encouraged by our coordination calls with the HTML WG Chairs, I think it's
   helping us make progress
   ... Everything still needs to follow the WG Decision Policy, of course, but coordination helps with understanding and
   ... One topic was I-203 ...
   ... We discussed I-203, they're trying to be flexible and work with us, but need a "usable" cp asap
   ... Also discussed I-204 and what they still need on that
   ... At the moment Text Subteam has more issues, with trickier coordinations, but we do seem to make progress everytime
   we talk

alt bugs: update on HTML5 in-spec alt guidance bugs--gathering, explaining, rechecking whole doc

   js: Expect to be done with review by this meeting next week

   leif: Will help as I can

buggy alts: update on checking alt texts in HTML5 spec itself

   js: This is thanks to Leif for identifying images we should check

   leif: Think have found a few I wonder about

   jb: Perhaps we should have someone do this who lives and breathes alt, David?

   dm: Yes

   <JF_> +Q

   jf: We also need to make sure we're consistent with Steve's authored Alt doc

   jb: yes
   ... So, David, you can give feedback and check that we're in sync with the Alt doc?

   dm: Yes

issue 204: re-alignment of HTML5 spec text about ARIA with actual ARIA provisions

   jb: Noting that Rich posted to list yesterday about this, terse but on topic

   js: ARIA believes it has finished rewrite of hidden section in ARIA doc esp UAIG 5.1.2

   <JF_> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/204

   jb: Is 204 simply allowing ARIA to point to hidden content?

   js: As I see it, yes

   jb: It's an issue to be concerned about whether HTML is defining ARIA here, but it's not appropriate for a CP to
   address that

   <David> scribe: David

   jb: john concerned that one w3c group speaking on another (HTML 5 on WAI ARIA) doesn't need change proposal... 2nd...
   they didn't get what was being proposed... do a realignment propsal, not a change proposal (we could add to bottom of
   change proposal, note that it was a change propsoal on another spec, not welcome, not appropriate)by chair of that
   ... invites John and Janina to talk about 204...

   jf: willing to concede process question...
   ... problem here. choice of word hidden... but there is hidden (DOM) and hidden from view, but in DOM... CSS:non WAI
   AIRA Hidden, and and hidden not in DOM, but there is a way to tuck it out of site (CSS, aria described by in flow, but
   has usability problems)

   LAURA: the spec should have some author guidance if there is ...

   jf: nothing in Matts change proposal about the distinction

   janina: I will write a change proposal, will JF pull yours for now

   JF: yes I'll will pull it...

   jb: I'll will withdraw mine as soon as you put in yours, concerned about timing

   jf: we have until the 18th

   janina: a sentence in 7.1 that uses an exampe on Aria Describedby... I'll ask to have that removed... that's the part
   of the speck that talks about hidden
   ... user agent guide, we got the language right we think, covers everything, please check it...

   jf: we need better author guidance

   jb: can we move to next item

longdesc... discussion convoluted, complicated, but in the discussions, people are coming up with creative ideas on what it
could do

   jb: do we pursue these ideas, or do we just stick with one clear direction, and talk about html.next

   <JF_> +Q

   jb: temptations to extend it, Laura has a new issue request, tying to longdesc dependency... lief had an idea from last

   jf: want to add direct relation to 203 video

   jb: 203 was on the table a long time ago...

   Janina: great questions, need to work through it, some for native solution, some think aria betr place for that... but
   we still don't have anything, not longdesc or describedAt, etc... we wasted lots of time, all this effort to put basic
   minimum back it.

   janina, neet to just get Longdesc back

   leif, i don't have anything on agenda, i withdrew my proposal

   leif, lets just focus on Longdesc on image for now

   <laura> I am not proposing postponing Issue-30. I am proposing resolving Issue 30 first.

   <laura> 1. It is impossible to expand/modify an attribute if that attribute is obsolete.

   <laura> 2. The HTML Chairs caused the delay of reinstating that attribute.

   <laura> The HTML Chairs are responsible for the predicament.

   laura: not proposing postponning Longdesc, let's resolve it and then talk about extending longdesc

   jb: no time

   Laura: not my problem, I didn't make this situation

   jb: it's both our problems, but this is a new feature request after

   <JF_> +Q

   going into last call...

   Laura: I'm ready now.

   jb: a consensus?

   <JF_> +Q

   Janina: we have a few things where we are not clear on, such as two longsecs on a media

   <laura> bye. gotta go now.

   jb: maybe second last call...
   ... door is closed on this phase
   ... while it is not uncommon in other spec to have additional features... it is possible to do a second last call... 1)
   barn door on new features OR 2) no features...

   <Judy> ...or 3) various things creeping in from various people

   Jb: Longdesc possibilities = would like to use longdesc or described at (it's on question) need to get all
   requirements....another thing is can we use exisitng longdesc.... but we cannot use for 203, because one isn't
   enough... how do we technically manage that be able to Summary,

   we could use longdesc on iframes, and summary (tables)

   jb: wasn't longdesc on summary rejected

   janina: yes, but we need post its

   jf: because summary attribute was rejected we though longdesc could be used... could be added to a number of things
   (iframes, tables etc...) on one hnd, need to make sure we have longdesc, but we need to do them both...
   ... we are boxed in because 30 has been in limbo

   ak JF_

   jb: let's park the extension of Longdesc

   <janina> dm: We should certainly address additional use of longdesc if another last call

   jb: want to queue up proposal ... can John 203, longdecription of poster of video

   <JF_> * Short name (AccName) for the video - perhaps @alt, or aria-labelledby

   <JF_> or aria-label.

   <JF_> * Long Description (a.k.a. contextual description) for the VIDEO - perhaps

   <JF_> @longdesc, or aria-describedby or aria-describedat.

   <JF_> * Long Description (a.k.a. contextual description) for the IMAGE (when

   <JF_> specified by @poster) - I have proposed <firstframe> a.k.a. <poster> which

   <JF_> was rejected; currently in discussion with the ARIA WG on an aria-poster or

   <JF_> aria-background attribute.

   <JF_> * A linking mechanism for the verbatim transcript - I have proposed

   <JF_> @transcript and/or <track kind="transcript">.

   Janina: drop 203 transcript can we deffer to HTML.next so the separate poster catch... covered by aria

   janina, can we get change proposal with short descp and longdesc, (as outcome of longdesc)

   jf: that's a dependency
   ... would like to see alt added to video

   janina, what's the recommendation

   dm: don't think we should pursue @alt on video

   janina: allow longdesc to go on video

   janina, but needs dependecy on issue 30

   jf: i don't know if that's the right way...
   ... question is does longdesc belong in HTML 5... if LD chucked out then 203
   ... would be chucked out

   jb: another way to phrase it... chairs asking for something straightforward let's give to them
   ... need to place dependency... on 30

   jf: concerned that it will look like Laura's proposal to extend longdesc ... concerned chairs will try to deal with
   this before 30 and say "longdesc is not part of spec so nothing to talk about"

   jb: I have two things 1) rewrite 203, 2) wait for Janina on 204,
   ... can't guarantee would like to come up with solution, if we don't make this fix to 203 it might get closed...

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]

Scribes: janina, David
Present: John_Foliot Janina Leif David_MacDonald Judy Laura_Carlson


Janina Sajka,	Phone:	+1.443.300.2200

Chair, Open Accessibility	janina@a11y.org	
Linux Foundation		http://a11y.org

Chair, Protocols & Formats
Web Accessibility Initiative	http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)
Received on Tuesday, 10 April 2012 18:45:10 UTC

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