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Re: [Minutes] HTML-A11Y Media Subteam Teleconference on 22 June

From: Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 11:43:37 +1000
Message-ID: <BANLkTi=sXD2zntO80x4bQgUpC3yXXeY9AA@mail.gmail.com>
To: John Foliot <jfoliot@stanford.edu>
Cc: HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Hi John, all,

John, thanks for taking the minutes. Can I assume that everyone who
was at today's meeting is also subscribed to this mailing list? If
that is not the case, can my comments please be forwarded so we can
continue our discussions? Thanks.


Today's discussion was focused on "text alternatives for paused video".

We've discussed several use cases, all of which the media subgroup has
previously reviewed, but it was certainly valuable to review these for
the new participants in the discussion.

We also reviewed several technical solutions for the mentioned use
cases and reviewed their advantages and disadvantages.

We have, however, not really focused on the key question.

The solution that the media subgroup has come up with that would - in
our understanding - satisfy all discussed needs proposes the use of
the aria-describedby attribute to provide text alternatives for paused
video. (There are examples in the minutes below and in the wiki page
at http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Alt_Technologies for these
uses).

The key question is:

        Is the use of aria-describedby a sufficient solution for the
use cases related to paused media?


John's issue about the lack of pausing between several linked text
paragraphs was addressed by stating that it would be possible to mark
up the text paragraphs in such a way that there will be pauses between
these paragraphs and navigation between them would be possible (I
think concretely that might involve marking up with <p> tags inside
the <div> tags). So, this problem is solved.

Thus I wonder: are there any other arguments that indicate that
aria-describedby may be insufficient?

Cheers,
Silvia.


On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 9:11 AM, John Foliot <jfoliot@stanford.edu> wrote:
> Friends,
>
> The Minutes from today's teleconference call can be found here:
> http://www.w3.org/2011/06/22-html-a11y-minutes.html
>
> ...or in plain text immediately after this announcement. As is always the
> case, corrections and comments should be posted to this list.
>
> JF
>
> *********
>
> HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
> 22 Jun 2011
>
> See also: IRC log
> Attendees
>
> Present
>    Janina, Eric_Carlson, John_Foliot, Jeanne, silvia, jallan, Kelly_Ford,
> Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Judy
> Regrets
> Chair
>    Janina_Sajka
> Scribe
>    John_Foliot, jfoliot, jallan
>
> Contents
>
>    Topics
>        Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience
>    Summary of Action Items
>
> <trackbot> Date: 22 June 2011
>
> <jfoliot> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
>
> <jfoliot> Scribe: John_Foliot
>
> <jfoliot> agenda: this
>
> <jeanne> yes
>
> <jfoliot> scribe: jfoliot
> Paused Media: Exploring the Optimal User Experience
>
> JS: we are trying to understand the user-experience and make sure we have
> appropriate code, practices, etc
>
> implications of UI, HTMLspec, etc.
>
> JS: explaining the visual layout of a page with multiple videos on them
>
> user tabs through numerous selcetions and lands on a video
>
> needs to query various bits of infomration
>
> controls, video title, perhaps poster (with rich graphics or texts), etc.
>
> JS: we have a proposed set of markup
>
> <JAllan>
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0466.html
>
> <video aria-describedby="this that">
>
> <p id="this">The 2011 video John goes shopping</p>
>
> <p id="that">Main actor John is seen pushing a shopping cart down the isle
> of a supermarket.</p>
>
> </video>
>
> <silvia> Here's a more in-depth example:
>
> <silvia> <video poster="media/trust.png" controls
>
> <silvia> aria-describedby="posteralt details">
>
> <silvia> <source src="media/trust.mp4">
>
> <silvia> <source src="media/trust.webm">
>
> <silvia> <source src="media/trust.ogv">
>
> <silvia> <div id="posteralt">
>
> <silvia> The placeholder image shows a blue steamtrain and titles Trust by
> Domenic Marbaniang -
>
> <silvia> 'It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in man',
> Psalm 118:8.
>
> <silvia> </div>
>
> <silvia> </video>
>
> <silvia> <div id="details">
>
> <silvia> <p>Hindi Gospel song by Domenic Marbaniang, 2007</p>
>
> <silvia> <p>Keywords: Hindi; Gospel; Christian; Pop; Prayer; Worship;
> Song; Surrender; Trust<p>
>
> <silvia> </div>
>
> EC: we do not all agree that this is the right way to mark this up. In
> fact I do not believe that the poster element needs a seperate description
> at all
>
> the poster image could be either a seperate image or the first frame of
> the video file
>
> it shouldn't be described seperately, it needs to be described as part of
> the video description
>
> as well, for a sighted person, the poster is only shown until the video
> starts, and the onbly way to return to that image is to refresh
> page/screen
>
> RS: we could specifically map a specific order of the 2 descriptions if
> both exist, but what happens if both don't exist?
>
> KF: Can you redefine the 2 elements?
>
> Why does the movie get a textual description that is not visible to
> sighted users?
>
> EC: that is exactly the question
>
> it is perfectly valid to have a video without a poster frame
>
> <JAllan> +q to say what if poster contains text (rating, cost, explicit
> language warning, Flashing/blinking warning)
>
> <richardschwerdtfe> ack
>
> SP: explaining to group why we do not have a poster element
>
> and why aria-describedby would be a better way
>
> <richardschwerdtfe> :-)
>
> JA: to recap what if there is an expicit warning label as the first frame?
>
> the poster would be conveying important information, which needs to be
> conveyed
>
> <Zakim> JAllan, you wanted to say what if poster contains text (rating,
> cost, explicit language warning, Flashing/blinking warning)
>
> SP: this is why I had suggested a posteralt attribute as well
>
> EC: nobody is suggesting that this is not important
>
> if the information comes from a seperate file or first frame if it
> ismportant that it be read, it is equally important to be read no matter
> where it comes from
>
> it is an important charicteristic of the video element
>
> separating it from the other parst of the video doesn't make sense to me
>
> KF the user experience - what I still hear coming through that the
> non-sighted user would ge more than the sighted user
>
> <JAllan> jf: authoring issue. when there is a poster, describe picture,
> and include any text in the poster
>
> <JAllan> jf: don't need to say title because it is referenced somewhere
> else
>
> <Zakim> silvia, you wanted to reply to Eric: sometime things already are
> on the page, so can be linked, too
>
> <JAllan> jf: video element has 2 attribute that point to elements 'video'
> and 'poster' that need video description
>
> <JAllan> silvia: can be more that 2 elements
>
> <JAllan> sylvia: why are we summarizing the video for the screen reader
> user when the sighted user gets no description
>
> <JAllan> sylvia: need description of poster. judgement call of author of
> what to include, poster, summary of video, controls, participants, scenery
>
> <JAllan> sylvia: happy for describedby, for all the functionality
>
> JS: it's important that the author not provide *more* than the sighted
> user gets
>
> if describing the poster it would be useful to know that this is what is
> being described
>
> static images "rules" should remain, regardless of where the first frame
> on screen comes from
>
> <JAllan> jf: ok with describedby. discussing describing video with others,
> there may be times to describe the video. must ensure a mechanism
>
> <JAllan> jf: concern--if describedby. points to 2+ things, how does user
> know what all the verbiage means, since they are concatenated
>
> <JAllan> janina: AT issue
>
> <JAllan> rs: UA issue
>
> <JAllan> jf: there is code for inserting a programmatic pause.
>
> <JAllan> rs: could inject pauses.
>
> <JAllan> ec: why do we need 2 separate elements with 2 descriptions
>
> EC: can we explain why we need two seperate descriptions
>
> <JAllan> kf: root problem, media has 2 elements only one is visible at a
> time
>
> but isn't the root that what is being rendered on screen has "alt text"
>
> <JAllan> jf: what is the right mechanizm to use to meet the user needs.
>
> <JAllan> jf: do we agree that users may want short and long description
> for poster and video
>
> <JAllan> sylvia: in the video and during the video can describe whatever
> is needed is audiodescription
>
> <JAllan> sylvia: video does not start playing immediately. what is user
> experience. video on page and paused...something on the screen
>
> <JAllan> sylvia: sometimes need a description of what is on the screen.
> this should be the only thing that is in the describedby.
>
> <Zakim> silvia, you wanted to say that the verbiage as chosen by the
> author could provide information on what the text means, e.g. "the poster
> shows." "the video contains..."
>
> <kford> The paused case sounds really the same is general graphics on the
> web. Some authoris do a good job of alternatives, some do not.
>
> <JAllan> sylvia: use video summary if no audiodescription in the video.
> verbiage as chosen by the author could provide information on what the
> text means, e.g. "the poster shows." "the video contains..."
>
> <JAllan> silvia: or could split the info into several elements. should be
> up to the author. teach them the right thing to do.
>
> <JAllan> jb: we seem to be less clear on our discussion. only what is on
> screen needs description, or midway through movie paused need description
>
> <JAllan> rs: have a short name and description in the a11y api
>
> <JAllan> rs: do we really want to expand the number of elements/attributes
> in the api
>
> <JAllan> kf: web page for movie theater. has movie posters to buy tickets,
> but doesn't launch movie. would this discussion any different?
>
> <JAllan> jf: half right/wrong. appropriate alt for image is a bit off the
> mark. scenario...3 movies all with same poster but are chapter 1,2,3. same
> alt not appropriate
>
> <JAllan> kf: other mechanisms to give that info to the user. static case
> doesn't sound different from image alt (good alt). still want longdesc.
>
> <JAllan> kf: longdesc give me enough info to decide what to do.
>
> <JAllan> jf: poster is an attribute. how to put alt on attribute????
>
> <JAllan> jb: if we have a stronger case, then we need to bring it up again
> with stronger case to html5...new evidence!
>
> <JAllan> lw: makes sense to make poster child of video. and alt goes on
> the poster.
>
> <JAllan> scribe: jallan
>
> rw: poster as optional child would that be ok
>
> silva: most of the time, poster is first frame of video. so nothing to put
> in poster element
>
> lw: static image, when separate needs alt
>
> <richardschwerdtfe> BRB
>
> jf: poster is the element. it is a thing with attributes. if separate
> image referenced by src with alt. if no source then uses first frame of
> parent video...and it gets the alt.
>
> ja: +++!
>
> <LJW> +1
>
> kf: why doesn't what jf just said make sense. poster should be able to be
> a child element
>
> <jfoliot> silvia, we can't hear you
>
> sylvia: it could be an element to link to image resource. attribute does
> the same thing. htmlwg make the attribute. no problem with that.
>
> <jfoliot> <video>
>
> <jfoliot> <poster alt="image description">
>
> <jfoliot> </video>
>
> sylvia: regardless of source of the poster, need one mechanism to convey
> info to the user.
>
> jf: poster as child is about semantics. poster talks about the poster in
> the dom
>
> sylvia: don't understand
>
> jf: need short/long description of video and poster
>
> <richardschwerdtfe> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0031381/
>
> jf: imdb 'gone with the wind' reads title, and description...what is the
> poster I am looking at.
>
> sylvia: describedby put all the information necessary in it
>
> jb: may need another call. need clarity for what we are trying to solve.
>
> <kford> Do you all talk on what e-mail DL The task force or is there a
> media list specifically?
>
> janina: come back again. most agree for next week.
>
> <jfoliot> I want to thank Jim Allan for taking up the scribe duties -
> thanks man!
>
> silvia: deadline for this issue...next week. navigation. there is an email
> thread. please comment.
>
>
Received on Thursday, 23 June 2011 01:44:25 GMT

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