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Text Subteam Minutes for 13 June

From: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 14:09:52 -0400
To: HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Message-ID: <20110613180952.GD2679@sonata.rednote.net>
Minutes from the HTML-A11Y Task Force Text Subteam meeting of Monday 13 June are provided below in text and are available as hypertext at:

http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html

   W3C

                                                           - DRAFT -

                                      HTML A11Y Text Alternatives Sub-Group Teleconference

13 Jun 2011

   See also: IRC log

Attendees

   Present
          Judy, +1.650.468.aaaa, Janina, Michael_Cooper, +1.617.300.aabb, Geoff_Freed, Rich_Schwerdtfeger

   Regrets
   Chair
          Judy_Brewer

   Scribe
          Janina_Sajka, janina

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Text-alternatives-related sections of spec to review during Last Call period; timelines
         2. Existing bug & issue re-open timelines during Last Call
         3. Need someone else to take on table summary
         4. Status check on other text alternative re-open requests and change proposals: meta name=generator;
            role=presentation & alt;
         5. Other business?
     * Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

   <judy> scribe: Janina_Sajka

   <janina> scribe: janina

   JF: Still owes meta generator text

Text-alternatives-related sections of spec to review during Last Call period; timelines

   <judy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review

   jb: Looking for spec review assignees on image element

   <richardschwerdtfe> ha ha

   <richardschwerdtfe> :-)

   <richardschwerdtfe> calling in

   <judy> ACTION: judy follow up with Andrew K (on image element, svg, and editable) [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action01]

   <judy> ACTION: jb ask Laura if int in helping review img element [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action02]

   <judy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Spec_Review

   <judy> ACTION: rich review or find ibm'ers to review (offline, -- also -- find people? scripting, syntax, rendering,
   editing) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action03]

Existing bug & issue re-open timelines during Last Call

   <judy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/0162.html

   <judy> ACTION: judy and janina check with html chairs on *issue re-open* timelines [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action04]

   jf: No progress yet ...

   jb: Notes request for alternate proposals issued May 25, and expecting Jonas proposal may be coming soon

   jjb: Reviewing our concern?

   jf: That ARIA approach may be insufficient at this time
   ... Backward compatibility, ability to consume/not on demand, and support in AT

   <judy> ACTION: janina will start the conversation thread with jason about the three concerns just above [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action05]

   <judy> js: the question here is the things that we would expect that Jonas's approach could _not_ handle; propose to
   raise those concerns now

   <judy> ...would lead to a frustrating user experience

   jb: We seem to agree that there are circumstances where fig-caption is a perfectly acceptable fallback for alt
   ... However, the opposite is also true--common examples where it's a completely inappropriate fallback for alt
   ... Only heuristic we can concieve to auto-distinguish would be length. Is there something else?
   ... janina: test for length, and disallow longer than X

   jf: concern that this is authoring issue, anyone using the epub will take more care
   ... We're forcing conformance checker to become an WCAG conformance checker
   ... Not wanting to get into discussion of who suggested fic-caption as fallback, seems inappropriate expectations of
   heuristics

   jb: Length is simple, but crude, and probably insufficient on its own

   gf: Agrees with jb that length is not best way to decide, but also that we need to take advantage of changes in tech
   ... This shouldn't be the only way to decide whether or not the fig-caption is appropriate

   jb: So a flag for excessive length fig-caption

   jf: How to get this into authoring tool requirements?
   ... Worried about introducing heuristics into this area

   jb: A warning on conformance meet the concern?

   gf: Yes for me

   jf: Perhaps a discussion with Mike and perhaps Henry to write this up appropriately?

   <judy> john: for instance... *IF* alt=null *AND* fig-caption = >200 chars *THEN* throw flag

   rs: Do we also want compliance tools to do this?

   jb: Validator?

   rs: No, because no longer reliable as most content is generated
   ... It's a WCAG compliance failure, and may be more valuable that way

   jb: On that level perhaps we should say even more

   <judy> js: the problem on the wcag level is still -- where's your alt?

   <judy> jf: ok, picture jf and rs sitting on the beach in the carribean; is that code non-conforming?

   jb: Doesn't this also break backwards compatibility?

   jf: A different story

   jb: But still think it's a relevant case
   ... We want html5 to work whether or not people are fully upgraded

   jf: How is fig-caption reported to apis in older tech?

   jb: Can we figure this out?

   rs: Probably to a div

   jf: We won't lose the text, just perhaps the programatic association

   jb: Found high percentage of examples where fig-caption text I saw looked like good alt text, except for certain
   situations

   js: Why shouldn't the author tool populate both fig-caption and alt with that text

   jb: But other times very inappropriate

   jf: Concerned about populating because people will hear it twice

   jb: Suggest we think more about this--especially whether implementation approach may help.

   <JF> +1

   jb: Any objections

Need someone else to take on table summary

   <richardschwerdtfe> ok

   jb: Concerned about the reopen timeline on table summary

   <JF> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/new-information-status.html

   jb: Can we reassign table summary since Gregory is unavailable these days?

   jf: Notes two bugs escalated to tracker issues -- but not a new issue, I guess

   <judy> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7633

   <JF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Apr/0091.html

   <judy> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7539

   The latter is more recent

   <judy> ACTION: janina follow up with wendy or cynthia to see if willing to take on table summary [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action06]

Status check on other text alternative re-open requests and change proposals: meta name=generator; role=presentation & alt;

   <JF> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/new-information-status.html

   jf: Leif has submitted a cp

   <JF> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Apr/0480.html

   jf: Leif labeled is a 'first' edit, but he's on target
   ... I intend to clean up the English and bring it back here

   <judy> minutes from last time: http://www.w3.org/2011/06/06-text-minutes.html

   rs: So the question is what's the error handling?
   ... So, shouldn't alt='foo' overide aria-presentation?
   ... So, no longer presenation, but it should be flagged

   jb: Looking for something concrete that we can verify on this? Do we agree on what to do?

   <judy> ACTION: rich draft a proposal on role=presentation [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action07]

   scribe for june 20 is Rich

   Janina will chair June 20

Other business?

   <judy> next scribe is rich

   <judy> next chair is janina

   <judy> thanks all!

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: janina follow up with wendy or cynthia to see if willing to take on table summary [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action06]
   [NEW] ACTION: janina will start the conversation thread with jason about the three concerns just above [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action05]
   [NEW] ACTION: jb ask Laura if int in helping review img element [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: judy and janina check with html chairs on *issue re-open* timelines [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action04]
   [NEW] ACTION: judy follow up with Andrew K (on image element, svg, and editable) [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: rich draft a proposal on role=presentation [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action07]
   [NEW] ACTION: rich review or find ibm'ers to review (offline, -- also -- find people? scripting, syntax, rendering,
   editing) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/13-text-minutes.html#action03]

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

-- 

Janina Sajka,	Phone:	+1.443.300.2200
		sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net

Chair, Open Accessibility	janina@a11y.org	
Linux Foundation		http://a11y.org

Chair, Protocols & Formats
Web Accessibility Initiative	http://www.w3.org/wai/pf
World Wide Web Consortium (W3C)
Received on Monday, 13 June 2011 18:10:17 GMT

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