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Re: updated change proposal for issue 129 ARIA in HTML5

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 13:08:20 +0000
Message-ID: <AANLkTinDKvjqDg+TfVX9GiJDjWNb1hKmRW=S3Lg6OX5s@mail.gmail.com>
To: Stephen Stewart <carisenda@gmail.com>
Cc: HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>, HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
I don't know how i can explain it better than i have already.

when i look at a heading with a subheading, i don't see a single heading i
see 2 distinct pieces of information that are related.

here is a real example (from

<h2>Living Standard - Last Updated 2 February 2011</h2>

the h1 is the title of the document, the h2 is a subtitle.

becomes this
<p>Living Standard - Last Updated 2 February 2011</p>

So when it gets reayed via an accessibility API there is no longer any
distinction between the title and subtitle. there is no longer any semantic

yet another point is that placement does not infer what is the heading vs
subheading in the hgroup, its rank, yet there is no way to infer that from
as the h ranks are collapsed.

<p>Living Standard - Last Updated 2 February 2011</p>

is the same as

<p>Living Standard - Last Updated 2 February 2011</p>

so the information available to visual users to say hey you can ignore me if
you like because i am visually less significant is not available to
assistive tech users.


On 2 February 2011 12:47, Stephen Stewart <carisenda@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2 February 2011 11:48, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
> >>The default stylings of h2 and h3 also have no meaning out of context.
> >
> > so? what we are discussing is what is conveyed by the default visual
> styling
> > of 2 headings of differing ranks put together.
> You might be, but I'm not :)
> <hgroup>
> <h2>Clinton Acquitted</h2>
> <h3>Perjury, obstruction charges defeated</h3>
> </hgroup>
> This is one "heading" (or headline) with a single rank, created using
> two heading elements, via hgroup. (I can't really make any argument
> for or against your examples because they aren't real.) The use of h2
> over h3 is only to say "you can, if you wish, ignore what the h3 says,
> I'm the main line", the visual styling that comes by default with an
> h2 and h3 in this context (and which I'd emphasise with CSS) is to say
> exactly the same thing to visual users "you can, if you wish, ignore
> what the h3 says, I'm the main line".
> I thought you were arguing that because accessibility agents don't yet
> understand the hgroup and will read both heading elements when they
> navigate with 'h' that this was the problem, it's not backwardly
> compatible; but you then said that no content should ever be held
> back. So I'm not sure I understand the problem at all.
> Best,
> Stephen
> --
> Stephen Stewart
> carisenda@gmail.com

with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Wednesday, 2 February 2011 13:09:14 UTC

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