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MINUTES: HTML-A11Y Task Force on 16 September at 15:00Z

From: Gunderson, Jon R <jongund@illinois.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2010 11:04:06 -0500
To: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>, HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Message-ID: <A37F89DE961B7E4594F2AB47054DAE4E0E4BEFD79F@DSMAILBOX2.ad.uiuc.edu>
Link:
http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-html-a11y-minutes.html

                               - DRAFT -

                           HTML-A11Y telecon

16 Sep 2010

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0418.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-html-a11y-irc

Attendees

   Present
   Regrets
          Laura_Carlson

   Chair
          Janina_Sajka

   Scribe
          Jon Gunderson

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Drag and Drop
         2. [6]Actions review and sub team status
     * [7]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

   <janina> agenda: this

   <JF> I've muted at my end

   <kliehm>
   [8]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List

      [8] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List

   <jongund> no

   <scribe> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

   <scribe> scribenick: oedipus

   <jongund> JS: Accesskeys is the topic

   agendum 1

   <jongund> JS: We would like to do more than just get status

   <jongund> JS: We need to meet the October 1st deadline

   <jongund> JS: Media group may need one more meeting

   <jongund> JS: We have two areas we have not had the movement in to
   areas, where we need bugs filed

   [9]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access

      [9] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access

   [10]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements

     [10] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements

   [11]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements

     [11] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements

   problems with accesskey as-is in HTML5:
   [12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/010
   3.html

     [12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0103.html

   chaals' analysis of GJR"s "problems with accesskey as-is in HTML5:
   [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/015
   9.html

     [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0159.html

   paulC suggested that these be entered as individual bugs:
   [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/011
   9.html

     [14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0119.html

   <jongund> JS: The on of the issues is keyboard access or device
   indepdence

   judyB suggested that the TF discuss them first:
   [15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/014
   9.html

     [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0149.html

   verbose descriptor requirements:
   [16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/043
   6.html

     [16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0436.html

   2 acceskey bugs filed:

   1. [Bug 10251] Psuedo-Cascade of Multiple Accesskeys Definable for
   an Individual Element:
   [17]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10251

     [17] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10251

   2. [Bug 10252] New: HTML5 hard-binds "Action" to accesskey
   key-press: [18]http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10252

     [18] http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10252

   <jongund> JS: The other issue is drag and drop device independence,
   so AT can perform drag and drop, current implementations are mouse
   centric

   <jongund> JS: Let's access command first and then move to drag and
   drop

   UAAG dependencies and access-*
   [19]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements

     [19] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements

   <jongund> GR: Accesskey was not a part of HTML5 it has now been
   reintroduced

   <jongund> GR: The user agent group is a

   <jongund> I am muted now

   <jongund> GR:

   <jongund> GR: Originally HTML5 did not have accesskey, so PF
   submitted requirements and then nothing seems to have been done

   [20]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements

     [20] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Talk:Access/pf_requirements

   <jongund> GR: HTML5 has introduced accesskey, but does not seem to
   address the accessibility issues

   <jongund> GR: I looked at UAAG 2.0 and I put on the wiki pages, see
   URI

   <jongund> GR: There point of view is very keyboard centric, I would
   like to see more device independent, I think we want to fill the
   holes of discoverability and device independent activation

   <jongund> GR: I am looking at UAAG 2.0 requirements for conformance

   <jongund> GR: Listed a number of commands ....

   <jongund> GR: The UAAG meets in an hours time, I will bring back
   more feedback from them

   [21]http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements

     [21] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements

   <jongund> GR: GR: Any questions?

   <jongund> CS: SO on some other items, doing no hard, and then
   attempting to make improvements past that?

   <jongund> GR: That is a good question and I pose it to the task
   force

   <jongund> GR: I have been thinkig of taking HTML4 implementation and
   then addressing the problems and getting spec ready text

   <jongund> JF: Comment on problems with HTML5

   <jongund> GR: I want to take the proposal to UAAG and then come up
   with spec ready text, I think we need something they can plug right
   in

   <JF> +Q

   <jongund> CS: I think we need to be ready for changes and take
   anything missing in HTML4 in HTML5

   <jongund> GR: I will put in bugs related to moving focus and
   discoverability

   <jongund> CS: Is the work item?

   <jongund> GR: Put back what is no longer in HTML5

   <jongund> GR: Add verbage satisfies the task for requirements

   <jongund> CS: Make sure it is clear int he bug tracker

   <jongund> GR: I am hoping by this effort I can identify with
   tabindex and command element ....

   <jongund> CS: That seems reasonable...

   <jongund> CS: Don't get upset if the bugs get pushed out

   <jongund> GR: The task force will be tracking these issues

   <jongund> JF: You mention spec ready text we need a change proposal,
   do we need to discuss here

   <MikeSmith> yes, bugs

   <jongund> GR: We discussed this briefly last week, mike says lodge
   things as bugs, because issues are hard to now

   <jongund> CS: Ian will want to work on bugs

   <MikeSmith> the chairs will also ask for separate specific bugs to
   be filed

   <jongund> GR: I will be doing both, I will put in bugs and develop
   spec ready text

   <jongund> CS: Make sure you make as HTML4 feature or new feature in
   HTML5

   <MikeSmith> w00t oedipus

   <jongund> JF: Thank you to GR from everybody

   <jongund> JS: I agree we are behind his efforts

Drag and Drop

   <jongund> JS: We have some developers here

   <jongund> JS: Can you give us a summary

   <jongund> ??: I had a look at the drag and drop section

   <jongund> WHo is speaking?

   GJR's synopsis of where we are with HTML5 DnD versus ARIA Dnd
   [22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/041
   0.html

     [22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0410.html

   <jongund> GL: The series of events are mouse based

   <jongund> GL: It is difficult to understand how to do this on the
   keyboard??

   <jongund> GL: Do the event processing need to be revised to support
   the keyboard \, like ARIA

   <scribe> ACTION: Gregory - prepare detailed bugs against accesskey
   in HTML5, bugs seeking restoration of elements of accesskey from
   HTML4 that work and are deployed; will identify clearly whether bug
   refers to HTML4 or HTML5; in preparation for preparing spec ready
   text for accesskey; will tease out the issues pertaining to
   @tabindex and COMMAND element [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot> Created ACTION-62 - - prepare detailed bugs against
   accesskey in HTML5, bugs seeking restoration of elements of
   accesskey from HTML4 that work and are deployed; will identify
   clearly whether bug refers to HTML4 or HTML5; in preparation for
   preparing spec ready text for accesskey; will tease out the issues
   pertaining to @tabindex and COMMAND element [on Gregory Rosmaita -
   due 2010-09-23].

   <jongund> GL: Something similar to ARIA with grabbable and drop
   targets

   <jongund> JF: The copy paste model seems to make more sense

   <jongund> CS: Does the developer need to write extra code

   To make drag and drop accessible, HTML5 must:

   * first adequately define what can be achieved via copy and paste
   using drag and drop;

   <jongund> JF: Yu should be able to identify target with HTML5

   * define a copy and paste API in order to make drag and drop
   accessible; if that is not a viable solution, then the HTML5 drag
   and drop API MUST be amended to allow the workflow suggested for
   drag and drop in the WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices document:
   [24]http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#dragdrop

     [24] http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#dragdrop

   <jongund> CS: Work is int he browser?

   * first adequately define what can be achieved via copy and paste
   using drag and drop;

   * define a copy and paste API in order to make drag and drop
   accessible; if that is not a viable solution, then the HTML5 drag
   and drop API MUST be amended to allow the workflow suggested for
   drag and drop in the WAI-ARIA Authoring Practices document:
   [25]http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#dragdrop

     [25] http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#dragdrop

   <jongund> GL: Yes in the browser

   <jongund> JS: Do you folks have any reaction to this?

   <MikeSmith> janina, Adrian Bateman is on as well

   <jongund> JS: We have this working for mouse and non-mouse
   controllers

   JCraig indicated that the ICITA ARIA DnD examples didn't work
   "normally" but work for me with JAWS 11/12

   <jongund> AB: The events in the spec provide 2 different things,
   source and target

   <jongund> AB: The second is providing feedback during the drag

   AB, [26]http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#dragdrop

     [26] http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#dragdrop

   <jongund> AB: Is the spec sufficient for providing information about
   drag and drop, is there something missing, is that the gap?

   <jongund> GL: Part of the sequence it povides feedback when you drag
   over with the mouse

   <jongund> AB: Is the gap is how to enumerate the drop targets?

   <jongund> GL: Yes

   next steps on drag and drop (Gez)
   [27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/005
   6.html

     [27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0056.html

   <jongund> AB: The order of events are different, some are dependent
   on how fast you move the mouse

   AB, there is no longer a copy and paste API in HTML5

   <jongund> AB: The real critical thing, comparing to copy and paste
   model, is the spec sufficient or does there need to be changes

   <jongund> GL: When these events fire, there need to be equivalent
   keyboard events

   <jongund> GL It is only one solution, so maybe it could be simulated
   in a copy and paste API

   AB, would have to either reinstate copy and paste API or have HTML5
   follow the ARIA DnD workflow
   [28]http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#dragdrop

     [28] http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#dragdrop

   <jongund> GL: We don't want to have two apis

   <jongund> AB: Is is possible the spec provides enough information
   for the user agent to provide copy and paste functionality

   GJR has long believed that keyboard drag and drop is a copy-and-past
   or cut-and-paste operation

   <jongund> AB: If we have all we need, no change is needed

   <jongund> GL: I don't know the answer

   <jongund> AB: We need to find the answer to that question

   <kliehm> AB, the drag & drop event model does not seem to be very
   consistent from a JavaScript author's point of view.

   <jongund> GL: My gut feeling is there will need to be changes to the
   spec, we need someone from the browser side to review

   the only mention of copy and paste found in dev.w3.org/html5 is an
   example included in the introduction to the MENU element:
   [29]http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/interactive-elements.html#menus-int
   ro which illustrates how to use the MENU element to create a toolbar
   styled as buttons with drop-down menues, in which the "Edit" button
   contains a "Copy" and a "Paste" item, controlled by javascript

     [29] http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/interactive-elements.html#menus-intro

   <jongund> JS: To move forward on this so need people to walk the
   events in different orders

   <jongund> GR: The only reference to copy and paste has only one
   reference and the the API seems to have been removed

   <jongund> JS: How do move forward to answering the question

   <MikeSmith> yes, the copy-and-paste section that was there is not
   there any longer

   <jongund> GL: I would be willing to work with adrian, I can't do
   myself

   <jongund> Frank: I think we can help

   <jongund> JS: That is a reasonable step, if you can do that we can
   get any bugs in by October 1st

   <kliehm> I found that one: [30]http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/dnd.html

     [30] http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/dnd.html

   <jongund> JS: Are we satitisfied?

   <JF> +1

   <jongund> GR: I think GL has done his due diligence, I think it is a
   good way to move forward

   plus 1 and big thanks to gez

   <jongund> JS: Thank you Frank and Adrian for joining the meeting
   today

   <jongund> JS: We will come back to it next week, hopefully we will
   have some more clarity, we need to log bugs by October 1st

Actions review and sub team status

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Gregory - prepare detailed bugs against accesskey in
   HTML5, bugs seeking restoration of elements of accesskey from HTML4
   that work and are deployed; will identify clearly whether bug refers
   to HTML4 or HTML5; in preparation for preparing spec ready text for
   accesskey; will tease out the issues pertaining to @tabindex and
   COMMAND element [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


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     [32] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
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Scribe.perl diagnostic output

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/discuss hear/discuss here/
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Found Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
Found ScribeNick: oedipus

WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: AB CS Cynthia_Shelly Eric_Carlson EverettZ Everett_Zu
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MichaelC Michael_Cooper Microsoft Mike MikeSmith P14 P4 P5 Stevef aaaa
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You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
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Regrets: Laura_Carlson
Agenda: [35]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Se
p/0418.html
Got date from IRC log name: 16 Sep 2010
Guessing minutes URL: [36]http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-html-a11y-minute
s.html
People with action items: gregory

     [35] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0418.html
     [36] http://www.w3.org/2010/09/16-html-a11y-minutes.html

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