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RE: disposition of ISSUE 30 cited in bug 10967 insufficient

From: John Foliot <jfoliot@stanford.edu>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 15:51:29 -0800 (PST)
To: "'Sam Ruby'" <rubys@intertwingly.net>, "'Gregory J. Rosmaita'" <oedipus@hicom.net>
Cc: <public-html-a11y@w3.org>, <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>, <janina@rednote.net>, <mike@w3.org>, <mjs@apple.com>
Message-ID: <017a01cb90e9$8210a620$8631f260$@edu>
Sam Ruby wrote:
>
> Revisiting this Issue
>
> This issue can be reopened if new information come up. Examples of
> possible relevant new information include:
>
>      * use cases that specifically require longdesc,
>      * evidence that correct usage is growing rapidly and that that
>        growth is expected to continue, or
>      * widespread interoperable implementation.
>
> I believe that Laura is collecting this information.  The advice that
> both I and Maciej gave in September on this topic is still relevant
> today:
>
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Sep/0495.html
>
> - Sam Ruby

Sam,

On August 12th, I wrote to the Chairs and asked for clarification on these 
three points 
(http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Aug/0045.html, 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Aug/0047.html) 
without getting much of a quantitive response back. The questions are/were:

>      * use cases that specifically require longdesc,

1) How many use cases are required?


Sam, your response then was:

"The assumption of metrics was something you inferred.

My suggestion on the way forward is to start with a single step.  Such
as a widespread implementation.  I've heard second hand that Oracle is
such a user.  If they could be encouraged to present their use case
directly, and preferably with samples of web pages (sanitized snapshots
would be fine if we are talking about intranet applications), then the
members of the working group can discuss whether the pros and cons of
that usage."
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Aug/0054.html

That proof has been collected and submitted: 
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/LongdescRetention#Examples_with_Redundant_Link_Text


Does this meet your criteria for use-cases "that specifically require 
longdesc"? If not, why not?
(It must certainly meet the first-step recommendation of gathering and 
sharing the Oracle data)


>      * evidence that correct usage is growing rapidly and that that
>        growth is expected to continue,

2) Define "rapid", define "growth" in the context of satisfying this 
requirement.


* Since the decision of August, a plug-in for WordPress was developed to 
allow authors to insert longdesc
(2010-9-26 http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/tags/longdesc).

* Drupal 7 will be officially released December 7th with support for 
authoring and storing longdesc data in that CMS:
"Has been added to D7, no plans to backport for now."
http://drupal.org/node/801584
http://drupal7releasedate.com/


Does this meet your criteria for both "rapid" and "growth"?  If not, why 
not?



>      * widespread interoperable implementation.

3) Define "widespread"

This has always been the fox in the hen-house, as for the most part the 
GUI-based browser vendors have shown little appetite (or outright refusal) 
in doing anything for "all their users". However, since HTML is DOM based, 
should an author use the longdesc attribute today, that attribute and its 
value *are* in the DOM, and thus can be accessed by any user-agent that 
chooses to do so.

An incomplete list of *user-agents* that do something useful with @longdesc 
today include:

* JAWS Version 4.01 and up - 
http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/software_jaws401newfea.asp
* LookOUT in combination with WebbIE. - http://www.screenreader.co.uk/
* Sense Reader Professional Edition v1.1.0.6 (Korean Screen Reader) - 
http://www.haeppa.kr/?page=10
* SuperNova/Hal - http://www.yourdolphin.com/
* Thunder in combination with WebbIE. - 
http://www.screenreader.co.uk/product.php?shopprodid=1
* Window-Eyes - 
http://www.gwmicro.com/Window-Eyes/Manual/HTML/index.html?19_10longdesc.htm

Does this meet your criteria for "widespread"? If not, why not?

All of the afore mentioned Assistive Technology informs users that an image 
has a long description, at which point the user has the *option* of reading 
the description or skipping it. (Emphasis on the OPTION part, as this unique 
feature also feeds back to the question of use-case: proposed solutions such 
as aria-describedby currently does not allow for the toggling of 'proceed or 
skip', and was never designed to do so)

Since all of these tools essentially perform the same function when 
encountering @longdesc, does this meet your criteria for "interoperable"? If 
not, why not?


I continue to ask these questions, as I wish to ensure that I "...Make every 
effort to ensure that this information is complete before doing so, as it 
will have the effect of raising the bar as to what constitutes new 
information in the event that it turns out to be incomplete."


JF

"Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large 
or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. 
Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of 
the enemy." - Winston Churchill
Received on Tuesday, 30 November 2010 23:52:08 GMT

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