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FIGCAPTION, @alt, and @labelledby: 3 issues

From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 15:27:19 +0100
To: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>, public-html-a11y@w3.org
Cc: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Paul Cotton <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>
Message-Id: <20100708140115.M2177@hicom.net>
aloha, laura!

three issues arising from a review of the materials you so expertly 
compiled at:

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jul/0028.html

ISSUE 1: i have a major objection to equating FIGCAPTION with @alt 
or aria-labelledby -- as a content developer, i would like to be able 
to use FIGCAPTION as a caption for an image or a collection of 
images, in the way that LEGEND functions for FIELDSET

<figure>
<figcaption>Four Stages of a Butterfly's Life</figcaption>
<img alt="egg" src="bf1.png" longdesc="bf1.html">
<img alt="larva" src="bf2.png" longdesc="bf2.html">
<img alt="pupa" src="bf3.png" longdesc="bf3.html">
<img alt="adult" src="bf4.png" longdesc="bf4.html">
</figure>

specifying either @alt or FIGCAPTION be used eliminates this 
possibility -- there has been discussion on this topic (associating
multiple images with a single caption that describes the group)
which became bifurcated due to my having initially cross-posted 
the emessage to wai-xtech as well as public-html-a11y:

start: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0142.html

reply thread 1:
* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0143.html
* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0144.html

reply thread 2:
* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2010Jun/0010.html
* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2010Jun/0011.html
* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2010Jun/0012.html
* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2010Jun/0013.html
* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2010Jun/0015.html
* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2010Jun/0016.html
* http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2010Jun/0019.html

ISSUE 2: i support the use of aria-labelledby as a valid substitute for
@alt ONLY if @labelledby is introduced into HTML5 as a "naked" 
attribute (that is, without the aria- prefix) -- content providers 
cannot count on ARIA support to provide such a fundamental feature
as a terse textual descriptor of an imagenor should they -- this is
a case where native solutions MUST be available to content developers

ISSUE 3: i support use of aria-describedby as a valid substitute for
LONGDESC if, and ONLY if, @describedby is incorporated into HTML5
as a "naked" attribute (again, without the aria- prefix) -- content
providers and users cannot count on ARIA support -- NOR SHOULD THEY --
if a native HTML5 solution is available...  therefore, naked 
@labelledby and @describedby are the only realistic alternatives to
use of @alt and LONGDESC

gregory.
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---------- Original Message -----------
From: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
To: HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
Cc: Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>, Paul Cotton
<Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>
Sent: Thu, 8 Jul 2010 06:37:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Add rationale or exclude role="presentation",
aria-labelledby &       aria-labelled attributes from alt change proposal?
Help needed. (was Re:       ISSUE-31 Change Proposal)

> On 7/8/10, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
> 
> > I believe this satisfies the request for updates. I'll update the
> > issue status page.
> 
> Okay. Thank you.
> 
> Again, it anyone on the accessibility task force can supply text 
> to justify role="presentation" and aria-labelled, please, please 
> do let me know.
> 
> I would love to add it to the task force endorsed proposal:
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010May/0033.html
> 
> Kindest Regards,
> Laura
> 
> > On Jul 7, 2010, at 7:49 AM, Laura Carlson wrote:
> >
> >> Hello Everyone,
> >>
> >> As you know the HTML WG Chairs asked that rationale be provided for
> >> the aria-labelledby and aria-labelled and role="presentation" options
> >> in the alt "Replace img Guidance for Conformance Checkers" Change
> >> Proposal [1] for HTML Issue 31.
> >>
> >> I asked the accessibility task force for help to supply rationale [2].
> >>
> >> To date I have received no response to my inquiry.
> >>
> >> Maciej asked [3] that I exclude the aria-labelledby and aria-labelled
> >> and role="presentation" options, if I did not add rationale.
> >>
> >> I have done so in a new change proposal. This proposal allows <img>
> >> only to be valid with <alt> or <figcaption>. This new offering is at:
> >> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100707
> >>
> >> I did find some bullet points stating advantages for aria-labelledby
> >> in Steve's "HTML5: Techniques for Providing Useful Text Alternatives"
> >> [4]. So I created an additional new change proposal for <img> to be
> >> valid only with <alt> or <figcaption> or aria-labelledby. It is at:
> >> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706
> >>
> >> Maciej, Sam, and Paul, please add these two new additional change
> >> proposals to the change proposal table for Issue 31 [5]:
> >>
> >> 1. <img> valid only with <alt> or <figcaption> or aria-labelledby
> >> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706
> >>
> >> 2. <img> valid only with <alt> or <figcaption>
> >> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100707
> >>
> >> I also added Steve's bullet points to the original (accessibility task
> >> force endorsed) change proposal. [1]
> >>
> >> If anyone can supply text which delineates rationale for and
> >> role="presentation" or labelledby or further/better rationale for
> >> aria-labelledby please, please speak up, I would be delighted to add
> >> it to the original proposal and ImgElement20100706.
> >>
> >> Thank you.
> >>
> >> Best Regards,
> >> Laura
> >>
> >> [1] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126
> >> [2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jun/0213.html
> >> [3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0588.html
> >> [4] http://www.w3.org/TR/html-alt-techniques/
> >> [5] http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-031
> >>
> >> Related References asking for task force help on Issue 31 change
proposal:
> >> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Jan/0310.html
> >> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Feb/0008.html
> >> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Mar/0007.html
> >> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Apr/0134.html
> >>
> >> On 6/24/10, Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Hello everyone,
> >>>
> >>> -public-html
> >>> +public-html-a11y
> >>>
> >>> Maciej has asked [1] for added rationale in the alt change proposal
> >>> for role="presentation", aria-labelledby & aria-labelled attributes.
> >>>
> >>> Or else he suggests excluding these three options from the proposal.
> >>>
> >>> He has said what we currently have is factual description of what
> >>> these mechanisms are and what they do. But we have no reason for why
> >>> the spec should be allowed to omit alt when one of these is present.
> >>>
> >>> So should I remove these options? Or does anyone have suggest text to
> >>> add to the proposal to justify these options better?
> >>>
> >>> The current text in the change proposal states [2]:
> >>>
> >>> QUOTE
> >>>
> >>> Added Options which Address Accessibility
> >>>
> >>> The language of WCAG2 allows a text alternative to be expressed in
> >>> other ways besides the alt attribute. Three cases in particular
> >>> distinguish syntax for cases, which yield more accessible content.
> >>>
> >>> role="presentation" Attribute
> >>>
> >>> role="presentation" programmatically conveys to assistive technology
> >>> that an image is presentational and not of interest.
> >>>
> >>> aria-labelledby and aria-labelled Attributes
> >>>
> >>> When the natural concise text alternative is available elsewhere on a
> >>> page the aria-labelledby and aria-labelled attributes can be an
> >>> accessible alternative for an image as it programmatically conveys
> >>> meaning to assistive technology. For example:
> >>>
> >>> <h2 id="bronze">Bronze Medal</h2>
> >>> <!-- Some page content -->
> >>> <img src="bronzemedal.png" aria-labelledby="bronze">
> >>>
> >>> UNQUOTE
> >>>
> >>> All guidance and suggestions greatly appreciated. Thank you.
> >>>
> >>> Best Regards,
> >>> Laura
> >>>
> >>> [1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jun/0588.html
> >>> [2]
> >>>
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126#Added_Options_which_Address_Accessibility
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 6/23/10, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jun 23, 2010, at 11:30 AM, Laura Carlson wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi Sam,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think/hope that I have now addressed the concerns that you have
> >>>>> raised.
> >>>>> I:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. Added rationale for all changes.
> >>>>> 2. Removed the reference to the paragraph-section-heading loophole, as
> >>>>> Ian indeed removed it from the spec per as requested in Bug 9217.
> >>>>> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9217
> >>>>> I just hope it doesn't reappear in the spec.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In addition, I updated all three of my current proposals for Issue 31.
> >>>>> So far, all together I have three proposals and possibly a fourth.
> >>>>> They are:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. Replace img Guidance for Conformance Checkers. January 26, 2010.
> >>>>> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126
> >>>>> In this one I tried to incorporate WAI CG's advice.
> >>>>> http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I still don't see any rationale given for the following three alt
> >>>> exemptions
> >>>> added by your change proposal:
> >>>>
> >>>> * aria-labelledby attribute present (non-empty only)
> >>>> * aria-label attribute is present (non-empty only)
> >>>> * role attribute is present and has a value of "presentation".
> >>>>
> >>>> The "Rationale" section has a factual description of what these
> >>>> mechanisms
> >>>> are and what they do, but as far as I can tell, no reason is given for
> >>>> why
> >>>> it should be allowed to omit alt when one of these is present. Please
> >>>> either
> >>>> add rationale for these changes or adjust the scope of the Change
> >>>> Proposal
> >>>> to exclude them.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> There are also rationale sections relating to a "CAPTCHA Loophole"
and a
> >>>> "WebCam Loophole" which do not appear to relate to any actual changes
> >>>> proposed in the Details section. That's not as critical a problem as
> >>>> changes
> >>>> without rationale, but it's something you may wish to address.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards,
> >>>> Maciej
> >>>
> >>> On 6/23/10, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net> wrote:
> >>>> This change proposal needs to be updated both in order to provide a
> >>>> rationale for each change requested, and to reflect differences
from the
> >>>> current draft of the document.
> >>>>
> >>>> As a concrete example, the proposal provides no rationale for removing
> >>>> the paragraph-section-heading "loophole" save for a pointer to a bug
> >>>> report, and the resolution of that bug report indicates that that
> >>>> condition was removed.  Looking at the current text, this condition is
> >>>> indeed no longer present:
> >>>>
> >>>>
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#guidance-for-conformance-checkers
> >>>>
> >>>> Other specific examples: There is rationale given for allowing
> >>>> role="presentation", aria-label or aria-labeledby as exemptions for
alt.
> >>>>
> >>>> - Sam Ruby
> >>>>
> >>>> On 02/11/2010 03:03 AM, Maciej Stachowiak wrote:
> >>>>> (+public-html)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Laura,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've recorded this as an additional Change Proposal for ISSUE-31:
> >>>>> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-031
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (I've suggested previously that you and Ian should work together to
> >>>>> identify any changes here that are uncontroversial, so they can be
> >>>>> directly applied to the HTML5 draft; I hope the two of you find some
> >>>>> time to make progress on that.)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>> Maciej
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Jan 28, 2010, at 2:18 AM, Laura Carlson wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hello Everyone,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have drafted a Change Proposal for HTML ISSUE-31.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Summary:
> >>>>>> The current guidance for conformance checkers for Section 4.8.2.1 the
> >>>>>> img element is unclear and does not implement WAI CG's advice on the
> >>>>>> validation of short text alternatives. This change proposal replaces
> >>>>>> the current guidance with clear guidance that lists all required
short
> >>>>>> text alternative options that exist to be considered valid. It
enables
> >>>>>> automatic validators to programmatically detect the presence or
> >>>>>> absence of text alternatives.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Full proposal is at:
> >>>>>> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ideas for improvement are most welcome.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Best regards,
> >>>>>> Laura
> >>
> >> --
> >> Laura L. Carlson
> >>
> >
> >
> 
> -- 
> Laura L. Carlson
------- End of Original Message -------
 
Received on Thursday, 8 July 2010 14:27:56 GMT

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