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Re: Discussion: Text Alternative Survey

From: Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 08:01:19 +0100
Message-ID: <u2l55687cf81004240001p6fe5cb99n1ef024c4b16494f2@mail.gmail.com>
To: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>
Cc: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Dave Singer <singer@apple.com>, Matt Morgan-May <mattmay@adobe.com>, HTML Accessibility Task Force <public-html-a11y@w3.org>
> The whole point of using it in this case is that the AT would use it as a
> source of caption information, so that isn't accurate in HTML5 UAs and ATs.

This is not about AT, its about anybody that cannot use a pointing
device. no browser supports keyboard access to  title attribute
content, this has been a known issue for many years, but has yet to be
fixed, the html5 spec does nothing to  bring us closer to a fix.

What you want to do is encourage authors to hide content in the title
attribute by relaxing the conformance rules for alt. This does a
disservice to any users that cannot access that content.

> The spec proposes to change this. We can't avoid speccing things that
> aren't implemented yet; we'd never add anything new!

there is no disagreement (as far as I know) with changing the
implementation requirements in HTML5, just to predicating the relaxing
of alt conformance on a feature that although its been around for at
least 10 years has never been implemented accessibly.

> As I understand it the only proposed non-ARIA solution is <figcaption>,
> which is supported even less by ATs than title="".

there is a major difference between title attribute  and <figcaption>.
<figcaption> content is available_by_default to all users it is not
hidden. It can also be explicitly associated with an image using ARIA,
which some AT support.

>> Removing title would make the HTML specification in line with WCAG, and
>> previous authoring practices. http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H33.html

> WCAG's recommendations are based on HTML4; the whole point here is to move
> forward. WCAG will need updating for HTML5.

wcag techniques and html5 conformance requirements for alt should be
updated WHEN we have implemented support for  accessible title
attribute content, not when an idea about how things should be is
written in a spec. otherwise authors are being encouraged to use a
technique that makes content less accessible. Surely a situation that
nobody who cares about accessibility wants.

regards
stevef



On 24 April 2010 05:26, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch> wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Apr 2010, Laura Carlson wrote:
>>
>> The title attribute is not up to the job of providing a text
>> alternative. It's content is not displayed to the user unless they can
>> use a mouse and beforehand know that the content is there.
>
> The whole point of using it in this case is that the AT would use it as a
> source of caption information, so that isn't accurate in HTML5 UAs and ATs.
>
>
>> The content of the image title attribute is also often not detected by
>> AT by default unless the user makes an explicit choice in their
>> preferences to announce the attribute contents.
>
> The spec proposes to change this. We can't avoid speccing things that
> aren't implemented yet; we'd never add anything new!
>
>
>> The set of options listed in the suggested text section of this
>> proposal uses semantic HTML that is up to the job.
>
> As I understand it the only proposed non-ARIA solution is <figcaption>,
> which is supported even less by ATs than title="".
>
>
>> Authors are advised to only use the title attribute for "additional
>> information" and not as a full equivalent alternative.
>
> The spec doesn't suggest using it as a full equivalent alternative.
>
>
>> Removing title would make the HTML specification in line with WCAG, and
>> previous authoring practices. http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H33.html
>
> WCAG's recommendations are based on HTML4; the whole point here is to move
> forward. WCAG will need updating for HTML5.
>
> --
> Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
> http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
> Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
>



-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG Europe
Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium

www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
Web Accessibility Toolbar -
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Received on Saturday, 24 April 2010 07:02:07 GMT

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