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Re: Teleconference minutes for 11 Apr 2007

From: Jeremy Carroll <jjc@hpl.hp.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2007 15:50:22 +0100
Message-ID: <4624DEAE.3020503@hpl.hp.com>
To: ogbujic@ccf.org
CC: GRDDL Working Group <public-grddl-wg@w3.org>


I note a problem with

the approval for
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#sq2

i.e.
[[
scribe:  http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#inline

<HarryH> PROPOSAL: 
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#inline is a valid 
test for test-case document.

<HarryH> RESOLVED: 
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#inline is a valid 
test for test-case document.

scribe:http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#sq2

scribe:the ns document is served as application/rdf+xml (no controversy 
there)

<HarryH> PROPOSED: 
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#inline is a valid 
test for test-case document.

<HarryH> RESOLVED: 
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#inline is a valid 
test for test-case document.
]]

The scribe comments are what I remember - we approved
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#inline
and then
http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#sq2

the chair seems to have typed in the same URI twice.

I would be happy either to approve the minutes as is, and vote again on 
#sq2, or to have the minutes modified.

Jeremy



Chimezie Ogbuji wrote:
> .. attached ..
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> W3C <http://www.w3.org/>
> 
> 
>   GRDDL Working Group Weekly Teleconference
> 
> 
>     11 Apr 2007
> 
> See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-irc>
> 
> 
>     Attendees
> 
> Present
>     john-l, HarryH, Chimezie_Ogbuji, FabienG, +0127368aaaa, jjc,
>     briansuda, rreck, DanC
> Regrets
>     IanD
>     Simone
> Chair
>     HarryH
> Scribe
>     Chime
> 
> 
>     Contents
> 
>     * Topics <#agenda>
>          1. Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-04-10T11:00-0400 <#item01>
>          2. GRDDL Spec: pending editorial work <#item02>
>          3. Test Cases: Towards Last Call <#item03>
>          4. issue-http-header-links <#item04>
>          5. base case GRDDL rule and application/xml documents <#item05>
>          6. GRDDL Spec: pending editorial work <#item06>
>     * Summary of Action Items <#ActionSummary>
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>       Convene GRDDL WG meeting of 2007-04-10T11:00-0400
> 
> <HarryH> PROPOSED: to approve GRDDL WG Weekly --4 April 2007 as a true 
> record
> 
> <HarryH> So note the real minutes are here:
> 
> <HarryH> 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Apr/att-0039/04-grddl-wg-minutes.html
> 
> <HarryH> RESOLVED : approved GRDDL WG Weekly --4 April 2007 as a true record
> 
> <HarryH> Reck will be scribe next meeting.
> 
> <HarryH> Jeremy?
> 
> <HarryH> Jeremy can scribe next meeting.
> 
> 
>       GRDDL Spec: pending editorial work
> 
> <HarryH> DanC?
> 
> <HarryH> Without DanC, I suggest we move to Test Cases.
> 
> 
>       Test Cases: Towards Last Call
> 
> scribe: 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2007Apr/0031.html
> 
> scribe: 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#projectsSpreadsheet
> 
> input: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/projects.xml
> 
> outpu: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/projects.rdf
> 
> scribe:prior approval: 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Nov/att-0096/22-grddl-wg-minutes.html#item03
> 
> <HarryH> PROPOSAL: Approve 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#projectsSpreadsheet 
> as a valid test for test-case document.
> 
> <HarryH> RESOLVED: Approved 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#projectsSpreadsheet 
> as a valid test for test-case document.
> 
> jjc: prefer test approval for material, and review WD as a whole (with 
> test text)
> 
> john-l: same preference
> 
> <HarryH> *ACTION:* john-l to add text to 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#projectsSpreadsheet 
> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action01]
> 
> <HarryH> *ACTION:* john-l is to add text to any tests many text where 
> deemed appropriate. [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action02]
> 
> Remaining tests with prior approval:
> 
> scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#atomttl1
> 
> scribe: 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#xmlWithGrddlAttribute
> 
> <HarryH> PROPOSED: To reapprove in bulk all tests with prior approval.
> 
> <HarryH> RESOLVED: all tests with prior approval approved.
> 
> scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#base-param
> 
> <HarryH> PROPOSED: 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#base-param as a 
> valid test for test-case document.
> 
> <HarryH> RESOLVED: 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#base-param as a 
> valid test for test-case document.
> 
> scribe:http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#rdfa1
> 
> HarryH: we should approve this noting that the stylesheet may be updated
> 
> FabienG: 1) difference btwn implementation 2) RDFa spec is not stable
> 
> jjc: text should reflect that the transform does not reflect a general 
> RDFa transform
> 
> FabienG: works fine WRT the test case
> 
> FabienG: should the transform predicate be included in the output?
> 
> FabienG: at F2F - the transform is ignored
> 
> <HarryH> PROPOSAL: 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#rdfa1 as a valid 
> test for test-case document.
> 
> <HarryH> *ACTION:* john-l to make sure rdfa1 test case text reflects 
> current state of rdfa [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action03]
> 
> <HarryH> APPROVED: Given caveat about current state of rdfa, 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#rdfa1 as a valid 
> test for test-case document.
> 
> scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#title_author
> 
> <HarryH> PROPOSAL: 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#title_author is a 
> valid test for test-case document.
> 
> <HarryH> RESOLVED: 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#title_author is a 
> valid test for test-case document.
> 
> scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#multiprofile
> 
> scribe:<head profile="http://purl.org/NET/erdf/profile
> 
> <HarryH> PROPOSAL: 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#multiprofile is a 
> valid test for test-case document.
> 
> scribe:>http://www.w3.org/2006/03/hcard">
> 
> jjc: possibility that changes to the profile effected validity of output
> 
> <john-l> +1
> 
> jjc: we should copy these profiles to our test repository
> 
> <john-l> (+1 to that, rather)
> 
> jjc: would like to see the test modified in that regard
> 
> <HarryH> *ACTION:* jjc to do modify 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#multiprofile to 
> keep all profiles in W3C space. [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action04]
> 
> <jjc> ^W3C^GRDDL WG^
> 
> scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#inline
> 
> <HarryH> PROPOSAL: 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#inline is a valid 
> test for test-case document.
> 
> <HarryH> RESOLVED: 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#inline is a valid 
> test for test-case document.
> 
> scribe:http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#sq2
> 
> scribe:the ns document is served as application/rdf+xml (no controversy 
> there)
> 
> <HarryH> PROPOSED: 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#inline is a valid 
> test for test-case document.
> 
> <HarryH> RESOLVED: 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#inline is a valid 
> test for test-case document.
> 
> <HarryH> Chime: What all the controversial ones have is a "multiple 
> output" sort of one.
> 
> scribe: 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#multiple-output
> 
> scribe:the tests with maximal results are less ambiguous
> 
> jjc: for the langconneg ppl probably pass the english version but not 
> the german version
> 
> jjc: is there a maximal result of the merge of the english and german 
> GRDDL results?
> 
> scribe:to calculate the maximal result, dont yo uneed to know the accept 
> headers up front?
> 
> jjc: technically possible
> 
> <DanC_lap> (I'd be happy to leave the german test in the someday pile.)
> 
> scribe: not neccessary for testing phase
> 
> <DanC_lap> (actually, the IETF rules is included in W3C process, as a 
> SHOULD)
> 
> <DanC_lap> (is discussion of our request for CR/PR on the agenda?)
> 
> <jjc> (transparent content negotiation)
> 
> scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#xinclude
> 
> jjc: Jena reader passes the noxinclude version
> 
> scribe: 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007AprJun/0010.html
> 
> scribe:[[[
> 
> * http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/#noxinclude failed
> 
> ok: since raptor does do xinclude processing this is ok to fail
> 
> ]]]
> 
> <HarryH> (I'm happy to discuss CR/PR is we have time. In particular, as 
> soon as I get EARL from Jena I'll make an implementation report, but I 
> need Jena's results and the precise number of tests to be approved)
> 
> <jjc> EARL from Jena this week ... hopefully
> 
> HarryH: as long as implementations pass noxinclude I'm happy
> 
> jjc: agrees.. but we need enough evidence
> 
> scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#noxinclude
> 
> <HarryH> PROPOSAL: 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#xinclude is a 
> valid test for test-case document.
> 
> <HarryH> PROPOSAL: 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#xinclude and 
> ihttp://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#noxinclude as a 
> valid test for test-case document.
> 
> <DanC_lap> is the .html on purpose?
> 
> <HarryH> PROPOSAL: 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#xinclude and 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#noxinclude as a valid 
> test for test-case document.
> 
> <DanC_lap> 2nd
> 
> <HarryH> For previous resolutsions regards tests s/.html//
> 
> <DanC_lap> yes, s/.html#/#/g in resolutions of this meeting
> 
> <HarryH> APPROVED: 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#xinclude and 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#noxinclude as a valid 
> test for test-case document.
> 
> scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#grddlonrdf1
> 
> scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#grddlonrdf2
> 
> scribe: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#grddlonrdf3
> 
> scribe:if a test passes the third, can it assume it has passed the others?
> 
> scribe:the maximal result is not isomorphic with the others
> 
> <DanC_lap> (tests don't assume anything; they're not thinking things)
> 
> <HarryH> \me asks DanC - can you take over chairing at noon? I still 
> have these meetings at noon on Wed. till early May :(
> 
> jjc: issues with the test text
> 
> <DanC_lap> chairing... tricky... perhaps, if we start making the 
> transition 10 minutes before you need to go.
> 
> scribe:so is "However, for the purpose of running these tests in order 
> to determine compliance, a GRDDL-aware agent with a security policy 
> which does not prevent it from applying transformations identified by 
> each test will produce the GRDDL result associated with each normative test.
> 
> scribe:" authoritative?
> 
> jjc: happy to approve number 3, and modify text of 1-2
> 
> <jjc> no delete 1-2
> 
> <jjc> annd modify text of 3
> 
> <HarryH> Note that I can't right CR transition till our test cases are 
> fairly stable, so this test approval process is quite important.
> 
> <DanC_lap> you can start on the CR request at any time, harry. I find 
> it's often good to work backwards from the goal
> 
> <DanC_lap> or perhaps somebody else can start on the CR request
> 
> <HarryH> *ACTION:* Chime and john-l to remove non-maximal tests with 
> ones with security relevancy. [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action06]
> 
> <DanC_lap> action -5
> 
> jjc: issues with general conneg and what the 'maximal' result is
> 
> <HarryH> *ACTION:* HarryH to start working on CR/PR transition report 
> for GRDDL Spec. [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action07]
> 
> jjc: would like to see the merge as a seperate test for conneg
> 
> <jjc> *ACTION:* jjc to produce/check merge results involving content 
> negotiation [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action08]
> 
> 
>       issue-http-header-links
> 
> <HarryH> I'm happy to drop this.
> 
> <HarryH> I'm happy to e-mail IanD and ask him to drop this.
> 
> <DanC_lap> WITHDRAWN. it falls to the someday pile. bonus points to 
> anybody who picks this up and makes progress on it.
> 
> 
>       base case GRDDL rule and application/xml documents
> 
> scribe: 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-comments/2007AprJun/0010.html
> 
> scribe:[[[
> 
> I do notice http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/sq1ns
> 
> is not of the RDF mime type, should it really be handled
> 
> as RDF/XML?
> 
> ]]]
> 
> <DanC_lap> DanC: this WG decided that the answer is yes, IIRC.
> 
> scribe:does this require the GRDDL-aware agent to attempt to parse all 
> source documents as RDF/XML?
> 
> <HarryH> I thought there was a rule about this sort of sniffing.
> 
> <john-l> All application/xml source documents...
> 
> <HarryH> I.e. look for rdf:RDF.
> 
> scribe:the spec doesn't speak about media-type
> 
> scribe:just 'conforming RDF/XML'
> 
> <john-l> But if it's conforming RDF/XML, then it must also be XML, so 
> anything that's not in an XML media type could not be a conforming 
> RDF/XML document.
> 
> scribe:RDF/XML spec doesn't define conformance by anything other than 
> the content not the media-type over the wire
> 
> <HarryH> In which case we're okay as regards RDF/XML.
> 
> <HarryH> So, one can serve RDF/XML as application/xml and still 
> interpret it as RDF.
> 
> <HarryH> We might want to bring this up explicitly in informative text.
> 
> <HarryH> However, we should remember that we don't want to tie the spec 
> to RDF/XML.
> 
> <DanC_lap> the relevant WG decision is under feb 7 under 
> http://www.w3.org/2004/01/rdxh/spec#issue-mt-ns
> 
> <jjc> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-syntax-grammar/#section-grammar-productions
> 
> scribe: discussion continues on what RDF/XML 'conformance' is ..
> 
> <DanC_lap> "If an information resource IR is represented by a conforming 
> RDF/XML document[RDFX], then the RDF graph represented by that document 
> is a GRDDL result of IR"
> 
> <HarryH> What if IR is in N3?
> 
> <HarryH> Sorry for asking the question :(
> 
> <HarryH> It's a real edge-case.
> 
> <DanC_lap> then the premise of that rule isn't satisfied and you gotta 
> look elsewhere, Harry
> 
> <HarryH> Hmmm...
> 
> <DanC_lap> <foo/>
> 
> <HarryH> Is there a notion of RDF conformance that isn't tied to RDF/XML?
> 
> DanC_lap: is a conforming RDF/XML document
> 
> <DanC_lap> <foo xmlns="http://example/vocab" />
> 
> <HarryH> I'll just have to re-read the spec and look for this...anyways, 
> feel free to ignore my comments as I'm not on the phone.
> 
> <jjc> If an information resource IR is represented by a conforming 
> RDF/XML document[RDFX], then the RDF graph represented by that document 
> is a GRDDL result of IR.
> 
> <john-l> What about what 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-syntax-grammar/#section-grammar-productions 
> about application/rdf+xml?
> 
> scribe:http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests#sq1
> 
> <DanC_lap> DanC nominates jjc to review this sq1 test
> 
> <DanC_lap> JJC: sq1 is not problematic; it bears the rdf:RDF root element
> 
> <DanC_lap> ... or... hmm...
> 
> <DanC_lap> (the TAG concurred with the idea that the root element 
> namespace URI works as an alternative to a MIME type decl)
> 
> <HarryH> +` root element namespace URI working as an alternatie to MIME 
> type.
> 
> <HarryH> +1
> 
> <DanC_lap> *ACTION:* JohnL to draft refinement to "If an information 
> resource IR is represented by a conforming RDF/XML document[RDFX], then 
> the RDF graph represented by that document is a GRDDL result of IR" to 
> be clear that "some other means", for our purposes, is a namespace on 
> the root elt [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action09]
> 
> 
>       GRDDL Spec: pending editorial work
> 
> <DanC_lap> DanC collects advice on the xml pi appendix
> 
> <DanC_lap> ADJOURN
> 
> 
>     Summary of Action Items
> 
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* Chime and john-l to remove non-maximal tests with ones 
> with security relevancy. [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action06]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* HarryH to start working on CR/PR transition report for 
> GRDDL Spec. [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action07]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* jjc to do modify 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#multiprofile to 
> keep all profiles in W3C space. [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action04]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* jjc to produce/check merge results involving content 
> negotiation [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action08]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* john-l is to add text to any tests many text where 
> deemed appropriate. [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action02]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* john-l to add text to 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/grddl-tests.html#projectsSpreadsheet 
> [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action01]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* john-l to make sure rdfa1 test case text reflects 
> current state of rdfa [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action03]
> *[NEW]* *ACTION:* JohnL to draft refinement to "If an information 
> resource IR is represented by a conforming RDF/XML document[RDFX], then 
> the RDF graph represented by that document is a GRDDL result of IR" to 
> be clear that "some other means", for our purposes, is a namespace on 
> the root elt [recorded in 
> http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html#action09]
>  
> [End of minutes]
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl 
> <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm> 
> version 1.128 (CVS log <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/>)
> $Date: 2007/04/11 16:28:35 $
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
>     Scribe.perl diagnostic output
> 
> [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
> 
> This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.128  of Date: 2007/02/23 21:38:13  
> Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/>
> 
> Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
> 
> No ScribeNick specified.  Guessing ScribeNick: chimezie
> Found Scribe: Chime
> Default Present: john-l, HarryH, Chimezie_Ogbuji, FabienG, +0127368aaaa, jjc, briansuda, rreck, DanC
> Present: john-l HarryH Chimezie_Ogbuji FabienG +0127368aaaa jjc briansuda rreck DanC
> Regrets: IanD
> 
> WARNING: No meeting title found!
> You should specify the meeting title like this:
> <dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting
> 
> Got date from IRC log name: 11 Apr 2007
> Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2007/04/11-grddl-wg-minutes.html
> People with action items: chime harryh is jjc john-l johnl
> 
> WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines.
> You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.
> 
> 
> 
> [End of scribe.perl 
> <http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm> 
> diagnostic output]

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