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Minutes, 5 March 2012 FXTF telcon

From: Erik Dahlstrom <ed@opera.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 23:05:33 +0100
To: "public-fx@w3.org" <public-fx@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.wapwzjsdgeuyw5@mbp-2.local>
Minutes:

   http://www.w3.org/2012/03/05-fx-minutes.html

and as text below:

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference

05 Mar 2012

    [2]Agenda

       [2]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2012JanMar/0146.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/03/05-fx-irc

Attendees

    Present
           ed, Doug_Schepers, smfr, krit, Tav, cabanier, ChrisL,
           +1.415.832.aaaa, dino

    Regrets
    Chair
           ed

    Scribe
           krit, smfr

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]css transforms open issues
          2. [6]open CSS transforms issues
          3. [7]linearRGB vs sRGB for filter effects
      * [8]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 05 March 2012

    <shepazu> scribenick: krit

css transforms open issues

    <ed>
    [9]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component=
    Transforms&resolution

       [9]  
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component=Transforms&resolution

    <smfr>
    [10]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component
    =Transforms&resolution=---

      [10]  
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component=Transforms&resolution=---

    <ChrisL> if we resolve it, i can take the action to publish it,
    likely on thursday

    <smfr> scribenick: smfr

    krit: question is what we do with the test suite

    particularly with SVG

    <krit> smfr: are you scribing now?

    yes

    <krit> smfr: thanks. I'll do it next time

    ChrisL: SVG is using the CSS model now, so the tests will just get
    picked up

    tests will get put in separate directories to people can just run
    some of them, but all the tests will get picked up

    krit: should we have SVG-only tests?

    ChrisL: CSS says they have to be XHTML1, and it generates XHTML1,
    HMTL4 and HTML print

    not sure if we can submit HTML5 tests now

    don't know how HTML5 has been integrated in (generated, or as the
    submission format)

    ChrisL: we can have both svg-only and not

    krit: does CSS transforms say anything about what kinds of tests we
    need

    ChrisL: we need to tests HTML with CSS transforms applied, and SVG
    with CSS transforms applied

    others would be good too

    Tav: we talked about testing at the last SVG meeting

    will be awhile before we get our new system set up

    ChrisL: at last meeting resolved to change how SVG tests are
    structured, so they have an <html> <head>; easier for Shepherd
    system

    krit: does the WG want SVG-only tests as well?

    ChrisL: yes, there's value in that e.g. for testing SVG inside
    CSS-transformed HTML

    krit: what would SVG-only tests look like?

    ChrisL: it's pretty easy
    ... we can compare with SVG tests using attributes, for ref testing

    <ChrisL> see here
    [11]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Requirements

      [11] http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2/Testing_Requirements

    smfr: Dirk is asking about the format for an SVG-only test

    Tav: if this is OK I can go ahead and start making some tests

open CSS transforms issues

    <ChrisL>
    [12]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component
    =Transforms&resolution

      [12]  
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component=Transforms&resolution

    [13]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component
    =Transforms&resolution=--- (note the ---)

      [13]  
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=CSS&component=Transforms&resolution=---

    krit: issue with SVG transforms and computed style

    across HTML and SVG

    <krit> [14]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15431

      [14] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15431

    issues with getComputedStyle and transform, transform origin etc

    smfr: we decided that for transform we'd return a list of functions

    krit: what about transform-origin etc?

    smfr: for most (e.g. backface-visibility) it's easy

    transform-origin depends on the resolution of the issue to match
    background-position

    we'll get on the CSS agenda for this week

    krit: issue with animations of translateX() vs. translate()

    <ed> link?

    <krit> [15]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14715

      [15] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=14715

    [16]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15758

      [16] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=15758

    ah, not mine

    dino: you can go from translateX to translateY just fine

    krit: what is the computed style during such an animation?

    dino: it could be translate(x, y)

    krit: if the functions don't match, computed style would be magic
    (matrix)

    dino: what's best for developers? it's best if we can match
    functions

    krit: computed style would have to be not just translateX and
    translateY

    dino: if we can avoid falling back to matrix more often, it's better
    for authors

    krit: same for skewX, skewY, scaleX, scaleY

    dino: rotate is hard

    rotateX -> rotate3d(….)

    dino: just handle the common ones

    <ChrisL> there was a complaint about dropping skew ...

    dino: this is different from what webkit implements
    ... yes

    krit: also other browsers
    ... in SVG you match the transform functions exactly
    ... can we say that translateX, translateY and translate(x, y) are
    different types

    smfr: conflict between what browsers implement and what's best for
    authors

    ed: what content would break?

    dino: that would be content that is relying on weird behavior

    schepers: would the content be using prefixes anyway?

    dino: yes

    schepers: is webkit willing to change

    dino: yes

    <dino> to clarify, the content that would change with these improved
    rules would be transform lists that mix scale and rotation. An
    animation from just translateX to just translateY would be identical
    with the fallback interpolation via matrix.

    smfr: spec should have "canonical" transform functions, like
    translate3d() and describe translateX as a shorthand

    <dino> dirk: what about translateX translateX translateX ->
    translateX

    <dino> smfr: I don't think we should support lists with different
    lengths

    <ed> translateZ -> translateY animations also fine?

    krit: we should match one by one

    <scribe> ACTION: dino to look at current rules and make a proposal
    for transform animations [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2012/03/05-fx-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-72 - Look at current rules and make a
    proposal for transform animations [on Dean Jackson - due
    2012-03-12].

    schepers: are we going to publish a new WG?

    ed: not enough CSSWG people here. we can resolve for SVG here

    RESOLUTION: SVG working group agrees to publish a new version of the
    CSS transforms spec with recent edits

linearRGB vs sRGB for filter effects

    [18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2012JanMar/0078.ht
    ml

      [18]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2012JanMar/0078.html

    ChrisL: it's not about color interpolation, it's how you'd specify
    that for a filter shorthand

    Zakim: shut up

    ChrisL: it's well defined what the default is

    Tav: no it's not

    ChrisL: assumed that it should match SVG

    Tav: WebKit implements sRGB

    we need a way to change the default

    <ed> could we reuse the color-interpolation-filters property?

    ChrisL: you said you wanted opacity to not be in linear space(?)

    Tav: want consistency; what should be the default

    ChrisL: either we have the default be linear the same as longhand
    filters, or we have a keyword to allow authors to have control

    Tav: the Adobe apps do it the wrong way, and Flash player

    <dino> I thought that was Rik?

    <ChrisL> not all of them do in fact

    smfr: WebKit hasn't picked a way; it hasn't really be looked at
    carefully

    dino: what's the right thing to do here?
    ... CSS doesn't specify what the colors are in

    ChrisL: the colors are specified to be sRGB
    ... but which case do you do math in for filters?
    ... linear interpolation in filters needs to happen in a linear
    colorspace

    Rik: but you can use another colorspace

    ChrisL: but that isn't necessarily correct. Linear is correct

    dino: for every filter op, you'd convert sRGB into linear, run the
    filters, then convert back, then composite

    ChrisL: correct
    ... longhand filters spec says it's linear, and shorthand filters
    should match

    dino: do you only have to worry about the colorspace going into and
    coming out of the filter?

    <dino> we don't necessarily need to scribe my education of color
    spaces :)

    <more education of dino>

    <krit> :D

    dino: what about a no-op filter like an feMerge?

    ChrisL: it would look different

    colorspace would affect the darkness of the antialiasing between the
    colors

    dino: now, with no-op shorthands, e.g. grayscale(0)

    ChrisL: that would not change

    <discussion of various examples>

    Rik: simple linear blending is not liberalized. there's an
    inconsistency in the spec

    <discussion of adobe tools behavior>

    Rik: real question is what the shorthands should o

    ChrisL: they should do it the proper way (linear), and we should
    give them a keyword if authors want other behaivor
    ... would need a new keyword on the shorthand filter
    ... what we really want is a single value for the whole filter

    smfr: or maybe another CSS property

    <ed>
    [19]http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/painting.html#ColorInterpolationFilte
    rsProperty

      [19]  
http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/painting.html#ColorInterpolationFiltersProperty

    smfr: is this different from SVG's color-interpolation property?

    ChrisL: no

    so this is just color-interpolation-filters

    ed: we have this in the filters spec
    ... or maybe not

    ChrisL: so that property needs to be in the filters spec

    <scribe> ACTION: ed add color-interpolation-filters property to the
    filters spec, say that it applies to shorthand filters in HTML
    [recorded in
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2012/03/05-fx-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-73 - Add color-interpolation-filters
    property to the filters spec, say that it applies to shorthand
    filters in HTML [on Erik Dahlström - due 2012-03-12].

    ed: are we happy with the defaults?

    ChrisL: yes

    Rik: ok as long as there's a way to turn it off

    ed: good to start with what we have for SVG

    ? problem with clamping for the compositing spec

    talk about next time

    ed: you'll take care of the minutes?

    i have to run

    <ed> trackbot, end telcon

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: dino to look at current rules and make a proposal for
    transform animations [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2012/03/05-fx-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: ed add color-interpolation-filters property to the
    filters spec, say that it applies to shorthand filters in HTML
    [recorded in
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2012/03/05-fx-minutes.html#action02]

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


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     ([24]CVS log)
     $Date: 2012/03/05 22:00:34 $
      _________________________________________________________

      [23] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [24] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

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Agenda: [26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2012JanMar/01
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Found Date: 05 Mar 2012
Guessing minutes URL: [27]http://www.w3.org/2012/03/05-fx-minutes.html
People with action items: add color-interpolation-filters dino ed prope
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http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2012JanMar/0146.html
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-- 
Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
Received on Monday, 5 March 2012 22:05:20 GMT

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