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Re: CSS shaders DoSing the browser?

From: 勤 <gman@google.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 09:38:54 -0800
Message-ID: <CAKZ+BNq3D-_8GATpzktpbU_fXP=QT4w9Ra4rU4uNLi0pSS3ZBA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Chris Marrin <cmarrin@apple.com>
Cc: "public-fx@w3.org" <public-fx@w3.org>, Vincent Hardy <vhardy@adobe.com>, Dean Jackson <dino@apple.com>
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 8:53 AM, Chris Marrin <cmarrin@apple.com> wrote:

>
> On Feb 29, 2012, at 6:56 PM, Gregg Tavares (勤) wrote:
>
> As you're probably aware, it's possible to effectively lock up certain
> machines by giving the GPU something that takes a long time to do.
>
> Windows gets around this problem by resetting the GPU after a couple of
> seconds if it becomes unresponsive.
> Newer Linux GL drivers support the GL_ARB_robustness extension that
> provides a similar feature to Windows.
> In the future GPUs will be preemptive.
>
> In particular though, XP machines, OSX, iOS and Android as far as I know
> all basically freeze under these conditions. I've kind of assumed that's
> why Apple has not shipped WebGL in Safari or nor enabled it for regular
> pages on iOS yet. (Yes, I know I'm assuming that's the reason though I have
> no actual word from Apple)
>
> Anyway, CSS shaders have this same problem and I'm not sure if people are
> aware of the issue.
>
> I think most people believe you need complex shaders to DoS the GPU. In
> fact you need no shaders. You can DoS even a fixed function GPU just by
> giving it lots of very large polygons to draw.
>
> As an example here's a sample that demonstrates the issue
>
>
> https://cvs.khronos.org/svn/repos/registry/trunk/public/webgl/sdk/tests/extra/lots-of-polys-shader-example.html
>
> The sample draws one subdivided plane. This is analogous to using the
> vertexMesh attribute in CSS shaders. The vertex shader then, knowing the
> resolution of the mesh, expands each sub-quad to the full size of rendering
> surface. The fragment shader is minimal effectively the same that would be
> used for CSS shaders with no extra effects applied.
>
> In this particular case I set the subdivision to 1000 which is equivalent
> to vertexMesh: 1000, 1000 but I believe even a setting of 100x100 would be
> enough to DoS many slower GPUs.
>
> There may be work arounds, you can limit each draw call to only 100
> polygons for example and that might solve the problem. On the other hand
> that might be fairly limiting in terms of speed for more interesting
> effects. For example if you used a monospace font you should be able to do
> something like this with CSS shaders
>
>
> http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/webgl/million_letters/million_letters.html
>
> But that only runs smoothly if it's 1 draw call. Splitting it into one
> draw call for every 100 sub-quads on the off chance that the shader might
> draw every quad really large would likely kill perf for shaders that don't.
>
> Has this been considered?
>
>
> Apple has not shipped WebGL because OpenGL drivers, on all platforms, are
> generally insecure. This is fine for games where the developer is trying
> hard to avoid crashes and GPU resets. If a game crashes your machine or
> behaves badly, you need only look at the box and see if your graphics card
> is supported. If not, you either don't run the game or you go get a better
> card.
>
> That's not possible on the web. Not only does something reasonable have to
> happen on every browser on every platform, but the browser must protect
> itself against malicious content. Some drivers today will cleanly do a GPU
> reset when a misbehaving shader is executed. But that is not good enough
> for OSX drivers. In all cases I know of, GPU reset affects all running
> OpenGL apps. On Windows this is dealt with by issuing a "context lost"
> message to every app, and it's the responsibility of each app to
> reinitialize it's context before continuing. And even there I've heard
> stories of apps that don't do a particularly good job of restoring state.
> On OSX there is no such message OpenGL apps have to deal with today. So a
> GPU reset can't have "innocent victims" on OSX. But some drivers have very
> poor behavior when attempting to do a GPU reset. They will hang or ever
> kernel panic the system. All of these things need to be fixed before Apple
> can consider WebGL ready for prime time.
>
> But even when these issues are dealt with and drivers are more reliable,
> the user experience will be less than ideal. Today's GPUs can work on one
> thing at a time. If a shader takes 2 seconds before the system decides it
> should be kicked out, that means no other graphics operations can be
> processed during this time. Since modern OS's use the GPU for system level
> rendering, a poorly behaving shader will cause visual glitches and poor
> performance throughout the system.
>
> What we really need in the graphics subsystem is the ability to have the
> GPU multitask like modern CPU's do. If a shader context can be stopped, and
> swapped out for other system operations, then there would be no need for
> GPU reset. The browser would simply have to decide how much time a
> rendering operation should be allowed to run and then terminate it when it
> is taking too long. I've been assured such GPU hardware is on the horizon,
> but so far I haven't seen any. Until then, the best we can do on any
> platform is to try to handle GPU reset as gracefully as possible and hope
> for the best.
>
>
So should I take by that that Apple as no intention of shipping CSS shaders
for the same reasons they are not shipping WebGL?




> -----
> ~Chris
> cmarrin@apple.com
>
>
>
>
>
Received on Thursday, 1 March 2012 17:39:29 GMT

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