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Minutes, 14 March 2011 public-fx telcon

From: Erik Dahlstrom <ed@opera.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 22:05:27 +0100
To: "public-fx@w3.org" <public-fx@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.vscp7dtugeuyw5@local.reivernet.com>
Minutes:


     http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html


and as text below:


    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference

14 Mar 2011

    [2]Agenda

       [2]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0124.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-irc

Attendees

    Present
           heycam, ed, smfr, rik_cabanier, hober, anthony, TabAtkins, CL

    Regrets
    Chair
           erik

    Scribe
           smfr

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]CSS Animation
          2. [6]2D transforms spec
      * [7]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 14 March 2011

    <scribe> scribenick: smfr

    <scribe> Scribenick: smfr

CSS Animation

    [8]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS
    _Animation

       [8]  
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation

    heycam: summarizes css transitoins and animations applying to svg
    attributes

    first proposal: turn all attributes into properties with the same
    name

    <heycam>
    [9]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS
    _Animation#Promoting_attributes_to_properties

       [9]  
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Promoting_attributes_to_properties

    (sorry heycam)

    (aussies all sound the same)

    controvecial to convert all attributes to properties

    may end up with property name conflicts; css properties are global,
    so property with name 'r' is not acceptable

    <heycam>
    [10]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CS
    S_Animation#Introducing_new_properties

      [10]  
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Introducing_new_properties

    second proposal: new properties for attributes, but use different
    names

    e.g. r -> circle-radius

    <heycam> <circle circle-radius="100"/>

    but this breaks correspondence between properties and presentation
    attributes, so confusing

    would need to define how e.g. circle-radius and r would interact

    third option: add extra syntax to css transitions/animation to allow
    targeting attributes

    <heycam>
    [11]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CS
    S_Animation#Allowing_CSS_Transitions.2FAnimations_to_target_attribut
    es_directly

      [11]  
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Allowing_CSS_Transitions.2FAnimations_to_target_attributes_directly

    <heycam>
    [12]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CS
    S_Animation#Conclusions

      [12]  
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Conclusions

    SVG WG preferred the functional syntax in the conclusion section

    wouldn't be able to transition svg attributes directly in css,
    because you can't use attr(x) on the LHS outside the keyframes

    smfr: there should be nothing special about css parsing inside of
    keyframes, so i don't like this proposal
    ... functional syntax on LHS is weird

    TabAtkins: points to dean's proposal in email

    <ed>
    [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0127.ht
    ml

      [13]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0127.html

    heycam: strange to extract special meaning out of "-attr-"
    identifiers on the LHS

    <ed>
    [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0128.ht
    ml

      [14]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0128.html

    heycam: prefer the second option
    ... it's more of a wholesale change to svg to make a bunch of
    attributes into newly named properties

    TabAtkins: this proposal seems similar to -attr-r
    ... attribute-targeting as a magic hack is untenable if general
    enough for transitions as well as animations
    ... OK with option 2 or -attr-

    smfr: -attr may conflict with vendor prefixes

    TabAtkins: could use attr- and claim it as a unique prefix

    anthony_work: can you use this to apply style to content?

    TabAtkins: yes
    ... like setting HTML attributes which map to CSS

    like the normal cascade; the presentational attribute loses

    (who just spoke?)

    <cabanier> is 'display' animatable?

    TabAtkins: we talked about all properties being animatable

    smfr: i was going to try it and see if there were perf issues

    TabAtkins: there's an issue to change transiton-property default to
    'none'

    heycam: does it make sense to target every attribute, or only
    animatable ones?
    ... don't want to modify the DOM attribute property value on
    animations

    TabAtkins: say that only subset of attributes are mapped to
    properties

    heycam: limit to simple values; lengths, numbers etc
    ... we've heard concrete arguments about option 3
    ... haven't heard technical arguments against property promotion
    idea

    ChrisL: CSS WG doesn't like adding lots of properties, and
    element-specific properties
    ... adding cx and cy properties that only apply to circles would not
    be liked

    heycam: don't want to expand out property tables on every element

    smfr: how many properties are we talking about?

    <heycam>
    [15]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Ani
    mation#Regular_Attributes

      [15]  
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Regular_Attributes

    heycam: about 45 new properties
    ... roc suggested that rather than adding e.g. circle-radius and
    ellipse-x-radius, see where properties are similar and merge them

    TabAtkins: but this list has cx, x, rx so this list hasn't been
    folded
    ... if implementations can only use memory for SVG elements, then
    the number of new properties shouldn't be an issue

    heycam: was this the main objection?

    ChrisL: yes

    TabAtkins: do we want to go with the attr- prefix or more
    specialized property names

    heycam: maybe don't need to decide now
    ... x can be a single value on rect, but a list on text
    ... so need to be careful with possibly conflicting values

    <ed> dx,dy has the same issue (for filters vs text elements)

    TabAtkins: mostly an issue for the spec, not authors

    heycam: if we go the attr- route then we could not create new
    presentation attributes on the elements

    TabAtkins: wouldn't add new attributes even with the specialized
    names

    heycam: what to do with SVG DOM obects like SVGAnimatedLength

    TabAtkins: issue seeing the animating value from JS

    heycam: SVG is interested in something easier to use than
    SVGAnimatedLength

    <scribe> ACTION: take attr- proposal to CSS WG [recorded in
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html#action01]

    <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - take

    <scribe> ACTION: TabAtkins take attr- proposal to CSS WG [recorded
    in [17]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html#action02]

    <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - TabAtkins

    <scribe> ACTION: Tab take attr- proposal to CSS WG [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html#action03]

    <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Tab

    darn

    <heycam> trackbot, users?

    <trackbot> Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, users?'.
    Please refer to [19]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc

    <heycam> trackbot, who do you know about?

    <trackbot> Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, who do you
    know about?'. Please refer to
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

      [20] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc

    <ChrisL> trackbot, status

    <scribe> ACTION: cameron to take attr- proposal to SVG WG [recorded
    in [21]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html#action04]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-26 - Take attr- proposal to SVG WG [on
    Cameron McCormack - due 2011-03-21].

2D transforms spec

    <ed>
    [22]http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/FX-Taskforce/2DTransforms
    ToDoList

      [22]  
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/FX-Taskforce/2DTransformsToDoList

    anthony_work: made a TODO list

    heycam: how do we proceed through this list?

    smfr: take to email, the discuss things we need to

    anthony_work: if you see issues that are easy to address, go in and
    edit the wiki page or let me know

    smfr: what is "add IDL" for?
    ... issue is that CSS OM is in flux, and the IDL that used to be
    there relied on something like CSSValues that were removed?

    heycam: does transform become attr-transform?

    anthony_work: was assuming it would stay as transform
    ... what does this mean for the SVG animation interfaces?
    ... some content uses them, we can't just drop them

    heycam: we should discuss what happens with SVG DOM, and if it
    changes we will need IDL for it
    ... wiki should make it clear that we won't add the CSS OM
    interfaces, just the SVG ones
    ... SVG DOM interfaces could just be defined in SVG, and not in this
    spec

    anthony_work: i like that

    ed: i would like to see css2d transforms interfaces, e.g CSSMatrix
    interface compatible with svg objects

    smfr: we should strive to make a single matrix class
    ... issue with 2d vs. 3d transform matrix

    TabAtkins: we should start with a 4x4 matrix

    smfr: you have to say what happens when you apply a 3d matrix to
    something that can only render 2d

    TabAtkins: you can specify what happens (flatten or whatever)

    anthony_work: would prefer the transform doesn't apply, to avoid
    behavioral differences

    smfr describes issues around supporting 3d css properties but not
    being able to render 3d

    <ed> trackbot, end telcon

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: cameron to take attr- proposal to SVG WG [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html#action04]
    [NEW] ACTION: Tab take attr- proposal to CSS WG [recorded in
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html#action03]
    [NEW] ACTION: TabAtkins take attr- proposal to CSS WG [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html#action02]
    [NEW] ACTION: take attr- proposal to CSS WG [recorded in
    [26]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html#action01]

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________


     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [27]scribe.perl version 1.135
     ([28]CVS log)
     $Date: 2011/03/14 21:00:17 $
      _________________________________________________________

      [27] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [28] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/properties/attributes/
Succeeded: s/anthony_work:/heycam:/
Succeeded: s/c-x and c-y/cx and cy/
Succeeded: s/css matrix/css2d transforms interfaces, e.g CSSMatrix/
Found ScribeNick: smfr
Found ScribeNick: smfr
Inferring Scribes: smfr
Present: heycam ed smfr rik_cabanier hober anthony TabAtkins CL
Agenda: [30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/01
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Found Date: 14 Mar 2011
Guessing minutes URL: [31]http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html
People with action items: attr- cameron proposal tab tabatkins take

      [30]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0124.html
      [31] http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html

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      [32] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm



-- 
Erik Dahlstrom, Core Technology Developer, Opera Software
Co-Chair, W3C SVG Working Group
Personal blog: http://my.opera.com/macdev_ed
Received on Monday, 14 March 2011 21:06:35 GMT

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