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Re: [Xsltforms-support] Is XForms a failure to learn from?

From: Joern Turner <joern.turner@betterform.de>
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 10:29:43 +0200
Message-ID: <543F81F7.1030904@betterform.de>
To: "<public-forms@w3.org>" <public-forms@w3.org>
Am 12.10.14 15:45, schrieb bch@shroggslodge.freeserve.co.uk:
> On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 11:07:41 +0200
> Alain Couthures <alain.couthures@agencexml.com  <mailto:alain.couthures@agencexml.com?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BXsltforms-support%5D%20Is%20XForms%20a%20failure%20to%20learn%20from%3F&In-Reply-To=%3C20141012144535.740a8805%40asus1225b.localdomain%3E&References=%3C20141012144535.740a8805%40asus1225b.localdomain%3E>> wrote:
> 
>> All,
>>
>> Having a look at AB/2014-2015 Priorities/w3c work success
>> (https://www.w3.org/wiki/AB/2014-2015_Priorities/w3c_work_success), I
>> can read that XForms is one of the "failures to learn from".
>>
>> Surely, there is a lot to be said about XForms as a failure. In this
>> list of "failures", I would personally add XSLT and XQuery for very
>> similar reasons, and surely SVG some years ago, if they all had to be
>> considered as effective Web, or client-side, technologies.
>>
>> What do you think? Shouldn't we write what has to be written?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> -Alain
> 
> Hello Alain
> 
> I am not an expert in the field, but I would not call XForms a failure.
> Though I suppose it does depend on what the measure is.
> 
> If I were looking for something that would have made it come together
> better, it would have been a tool, a main tool, a browser or something,
> that brought all the ideas together in a demonstrable and useful
> product.
> 
> Having said that, it is a shame it has all [arguably] struggled along
> for reasons which I suspect are down to other commercial vested
> interests by big players and their take-up or lack of, any proposed
> standards adoption.
> 
> I still believe the XML based 'tools' (XForms, and associated concepts
> e.g. XRX) are extremely important and its too easy to cast them off.

I agree though we're looking for improvments.
> 
> This comment from a reply to your post "...the W3C...should just
> make its own browser with ALL its XML standards implemented." (Stephen
> Cameron)  is not a shout without serious merit in my opinion too.
> 
> Not wishing to distract from supporting the previous idea, was not
> XSmiles an attempt to have a go at doing the XML standards compliant
> browser.
Yes, another altruistic approach that didn't survive. Dont get this
wrong - i love such projects but projects only survive if they can feed
the people working on them.

> 
> Whatever, I still try to use XForms and it will only fail for me if the
> clever and supportive open-source community minds keeping tools going
> in some form or another, actually give up. To them, including you for
> XSLTForms, I am grateful!

Well - for our part (betterFORM) there will be changes. We just released
betterFORM 5 which is about 97% XForms 1.1 conformant.

But there will definitely be a change. We'll not drop XForms completely
but Version 5 will be the last with full spec support. Version 6 will
continue to use the XForms model but drop the UI in favor of plain HTML5
syntax. Eventually we'll also implement some XForms 2.0 but only to the
extend where we *really* see a benefit for the developer.

Joern
> 
> I wish there was some push by W3C to resurrect (if some feel it has had
> its day) and bring it all together in a serious meaningful way. There
> would always be a market I'm sure.....creative non-mainstream people
> like to push boundaries   :-).
> 
> Regards
> Chris H.
> 
Received on Thursday, 16 October 2014 08:30:12 UTC

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