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Draft minutes for 2007 September 19

From: Blake Jones <blake.jones@ViewPlus.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 13:52:40 -0700
Message-ID: <46F18C18.5090008@ViewPlus.com>
To: public-forms@w3.org

Not sure how Leigh gets such good minutes.  I'm impressed.

Here are my draft minutes.  Please respond with corrections.

Will I need to do something to officially "archive" the minutes 
somewhere or is the email archive sufficient?

Thanks,

Blake

============================================

W3C Forms teleconference September 19, 2007

Present
Erik Bruchez, Orbeon (chair)
Mark Birbeck, x-port.net
Steven Pemberton, CWI/W3C
Uli Lissť, DreamLabs
Keith Wells, IBM
Charlie Wiecha, IBM
Leigh Klotz, Xerox
Nick van den Bleeken, Inventive Designers
Blake Jones, DAISY Consortium/ViewPlus Technologies (minutes)
Roger Perez, SATEC
Leigh Klotz, Xerox

Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2007Sep/0055

Steven Pemberton: great F2F last week.
Erik Bruchez:John wants task force volunteers to talk.
Steven Pemberton: Hotel deadline for next F2F is in October, so book 
soon.  Meeting MTW.

Topic: xforms:select and blank values
http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xforms-issues/Controls?id=90;user=guest;statetype=1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Erik Bruchez:Select empty values allowable?  Always selectable, never 
selectable?
Steven Pemberton: Can't see how you'd get empty to be selected.
Erik Bruchez:Author can create empty value, or the instance can later 
become empty due to user action.  How should it behave?
Steven Pemberton: Intiial feeling is select should not have empty value.
Mark Birbeck: Whether it's empty it won't have any effect.
Steven Pemberton: We could say it's undefined.
Steven Pemberton: result can be a string or a structured value.
Steven Pemberton: What does xforms:copy() do w/empty value?
Erik Bruchez: I think that's a different problem.
Steven Pemberton: At this stage it's best to say not defined.
Erik Bruchez: We could modify that at some point.
Erik Bruchez: Have a note saying author should avoid whitespace 
characters in value.
Mark Birbeck: Why say it's undefined, we know what it will do: nothing.
Erik Bruchez: Does it show up?
Mark Birbeck: It could.  Just depends how implemented.
Steven Pemberton: It's up to implementer, so undefined is OK term.
Erik Bruchez: It's confusing to XF implementer.
Steven Pemberton; We don't define the effect so implementer's can do 
what they want.
Mark Birbeck: not sure that clarifies.  It's too broad.  Only 2 ways it 
can go.  If instance data is empty, XF schema says nothing happens.
Steven Pemberton: Have to either say what happens, or say it's undefined.
Mark Birbeck: 2 aspects to this: UI and underlying data.  2 or 3 options 
for UI.  let's pick one.
Erik Bruchez: show item-what happens when selected?  Check box can't 
affect bound data.  Does check box become unselected?  Or don't show 
item at all?  Inidcate item is not selectable?
Mark Birbeck: All of these work for me.
Erik Bruchez: Could note that underlying data is unaffected but up to 
implemeter what do do with UI.
Mark Birbeck: Could say processor free to not display it.
Erik Bruchez: How about this proposed resolution (on IRC).
Proposed resolution: Select items with blanks or empty values do not 
affect the storage value and these items should not be selectable by the 
user.
Nick Van den Bleeken: Blank not well defined in our spec.
Steven Pemberton: Whoever does actual wording can fix that up.
Nick Van den Bleeken: OK with that.
RESOLUTION: Select items with blanks or empty values do not affect the 
storage value and these items should not be selectable by the user.
ACTION: Erik Bruchez Erik to add text for select items with blanks or 
empty values do not affect the storage value and these items should not 
be selectable by the user (and have definition or better wording for blank).

Topic: Other XForms select issues
http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xforms-issues/Controls?id=88;user=guest;statetype=1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1

Erik Bruchez: Mostly issue in the spec.
Erik Bruchez: Use term "storage value" only in sec. 8.1.10
Steven Pemberton: if values can't be represented on a Select it is the 
same as out of range.
Erik Bruchez: On select1 can only show one value so not a problem.  
Could just ignore values that are not allowed on select.  Or say out of 
range.
Steven Pemberton: might be values in instance you don't want to offer in 
this form.  But if don't change anything on the form, instance can 
contain bad data.
Erik Bruchez: out of range doesn't prevent control from functioning.  
Could style control somehow to indicate out of range.
Steven Pemberton: If have bad data in instance, no matter what you 
select the bad value can't be removed.
Nick Van den Bleeken: Can we change the instance data when changing 
selected set?
Erik Bruchez: Good point.  Issue 89 asks that.  That's also part of this 
issue.
http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/cgi-bin/xforms-issues/Controls?id=89;user=guest;statetype=1;upostype=-1;changetype=-1;restype=-1
Erik Bruchez: Sounds like we agree that its Only presentation issue.  
But can we change the bound data?
Steven Pemberton: If bound to instance data that has values different 
than selected, does instance data get replaced?
Mark Birbeck: Our implemetation leaves "bad" data in the instance.
Proposed resolution for issue 88: We agree that the control present an 
out-of-range condition in this scenario, and to rewrite the paragraph to 
clarify that behavior.
ACTION: Erik Clarify pargraph about out ouf range state on select
Nick Van den Bleeken: not sure i like append.  can't correct bad data 
any more.
RESOLUTION: issue 89 we propose that the behavior be non-destructive and 
choose option 2a
ACTION: Erik add text for issue 89 we propose that the behavior be 
non-destructive and choose option 2a.
Erik Bruchez gets those 2 actions.

IRC minutes
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/19-forms-minutes.html

-- 
Blake Jones
Software Engineer
ViewPlus Technologies
blake.jones@viewplus.com
Received on Wednesday, 19 September 2007 20:52:55 UTC

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