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Re: Quick proposal: method="get" be default on submission element

From: John Boyer <boyerj@ca.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 14:37:13 -0700
To: ebruchez@orbeon.com
Cc: Forms WG <public-forms@w3.org>, public-forms-request@w3.org
Message-ID: <OF751DDA71.BE6ACB0B-ON8825736F.00762B7C-8825736F.0076C39F@ca.ibm.com>
Hi guys,

This may be why method was left without a default setting in XForms.

If we adopt the HTML default, then XForms submissions do not send XML data 
by default.

If we adopt a default that causes XForms submssions to send XML data by 
default, then it does not match the HTML default.

I tend to prefer language design in which the default expresses what 
people are most likely to do, rather than a default imposed by historical 
precedent, particularly when the historical precedent imposes exactly the 
mess we were trying to get out of with the new language (flat tag-value 
pair data structures, in this case).

It seems reasonable to say that submission with an expressed method="get" 
still lets us talk to legacy non-XML systems. 
Even in the light of syntactic softening we want for XForms 1.2, it does 
not seem to be a big problem.  An unexpressed XForms submission implied by 
an HTML form would have an expressed method="get" because that is the HTML 
default.  It is no different than saying the HTML form tag's action 
attribute implies a resource attribute on submission (because the action 
attribute of submission is deprecated).

Cheers,
John M. Boyer, Ph.D.
STSM: Lotus Forms Architect and Researcher
Chair, W3C Forms Working Group
Workplace, Portal and Collaboration Software
IBM Victoria Software Lab
E-Mail: boyerj@ca.ibm.com 

Blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/JohnBoyer





Erik Bruchez <ebruchez@orbeon.com> 
Sent by: public-forms-request@w3.org
10/09/2007 02:25 PM
Please respond to
ebruchez@orbeon.com


To
Forms WG <public-forms@w3.org>
cc

Subject
Re: Quick proposal: method="get" be default on submission element







Thanks, my bad.

-Erik

Mark Birbeck wrote:
> Hi Erik,
> 
> "get" is the default in HTML:
> 
>   <http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#adef-method>
> 
> Combined with a default of @replace="all" it means that, with Steven's
> suggestion, we would have almost completely replicated the behaviour
> of HTML forms . (We'd also need to add that @action defaults to "" to
> really finish it.)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mark
> 
> On 08/10/2007, Erik Bruchez <erik@bruchez.org> wrote:
>> It's a tough call.
>>
>> Most of our use cases at Orbeon involve "post" (more rarely "put")
>> because that's how you can send out XML to services out there, and as
>> pointed out "get" handles name/value pairs only. Finally, for
>> compatibility with HTML forms' common use cases, another reasonable
>> default would be "form-data-post".
>>
>> It doesn't seem that HTML forms have an actual default here, if I read
>> correctly:
>>
>>    http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#submit-format
>>
>> So rather than having a non-obvious default, I am leaning towards
>> thinking that maybe we should simply not have a default and make/keep
>> the method attribute required.
>>
>> -Erik
>>
>> Klotz, Leigh wrote:
>>> Originally [1] post was the default but it was removed [2] when we
>>> changed from submitInfo to submission.
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> 
http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-xforms-20020118/slice3.html#structure-model-submitInfo

>>> [2]
>>> 
http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/WD-xforms-20020821/slice3.html#structure-model-submission

>>>
>>> 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* public-forms-request@w3.org [
mailto:public-forms-request@w3.org]
>>> *On Behalf Of *John Boyer
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 08, 2007 7:32 AM
>>> *To:* Steven Pemberton
>>> *Cc:* Forms WG; public-forms-request@w3.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: Quick proposal: method="get" be default on submission 
element
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Steven,
>>>
>>> Having a default seems like a great idea.
>>> At first, "get" seemed like a good choice, but then I realized that we
>>> are setting the default in such a way that transmission of tag value
>>> pairs, not XML, is the default.  From that point of view, wouldn't
>>> "post" be the better default?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> John M. Boyer, Ph.D.
>>> STSM: Lotus Forms Architect and Researcher
>>> Chair, W3C Forms Working Group
>>> Workplace, Portal and Collaboration Software
>>> IBM Victoria Software Lab
>>> E-Mail: boyerj@ca.ibm.com
>>>
>>> Blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/JohnBoyer
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *"Steven Pemberton" <steven.pemberton@cwi.nl>*
>>> Sent by: public-forms-request@w3.org
>>>
>>> 10/05/2007 07:31 AM
>>>
>>>
>>> To
>>>       "Forms WG" <public-forms@w3.org>
>>> cc
>>>
>>> Subject
>>>       Quick proposal: method="get" be default on submission element
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> While writing examples for the submission section, it struck me that 
we
>>> may as well have *some* default for submission@method, and since it
>>> usually seems to be get, I would like to propose that. Then the 
simplest
>>> submission would be something like:
>>>
>>>                 <submission action="http://www.example.com/search" />
>>>
>>> Steven
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Erik Bruchez's Ponderings
>> http://erik.bruchez.name/
>>
>>
> 
> 


-- 
Orbeon Forms - Web Forms for the Enterprise Done the Right Way
http://www.orbeon.com/
Received on Tuesday, 9 October 2007 21:37:37 UTC

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