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Re: Ordering concepts in a Tree display

From: Christophe Dupriez <christophe.dupriez@destin.be>
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 18:57:53 +0100
Message-ID: <4D3877A1.7040300@destin.be>
To: Jakob Voss <jakob.voss@gbv.de>
CC: public-esw-thes@w3.org
Hi Jakob!

Thesauri are data assembled with different usages in mind.
    No conceptual building can make sense without underlying aims.
    Most of the time, it is (at least) identification of indexing (or 
classification) concepts for documents (or data objects) storage and 
retrieval.
So displaying "easy to grasp" lists of available concepts is essential.

Sorting concepts is a dynamic process to make the best display (of 
thesauri) for a given user speaking a given language.
So the thesaurus is multilingual, you just show (first) what is in the 
best language for the user.
In my systems, I also define for Schemes what are the "supraLanguages", 
languages preferred by the users to their own language (like latin for 
plant names).

Typically, a label is chosen (for sort and display):
   * in the supraLanguage (latin for scientific names),
   * if not available, in the user language
   * if not available, a label with no associated language
   * if not available, the english label if english is understood by the 
user
   * if not available, a label in another language understood by the user
   * if not available, the english label
   * if not available, the first available label

Do you think we need a Collation definition if we have an optional 
sortKey property?
The collating process may be more a question of process than one of data?

Christophe


Le 20/01/2011 16:05, Jakob Voss a écrit :
> Christophe Dupriez wrote:
>
>> Saying that SKOS display is not SKOS business sounds strange to me: If I
>> want "pure" "unhuman" data, I go toward SQL, XML or OWL.
>> If I want "human consumable data", I go toward SKOS, HTML (or SGML!).
>
> SKOS is as "unhuman" as SQL, XML, OWL, and SGML. As I understand 
> Alistair, ordering was not considered as main issue of SKOS, just like 
> other topics.
>
>> Please let an ol'timer say that being able to associate a simple
>> numerical value to a Concept to improve sorting in trees (local sort)
>> has proven enough in practice for all applications I met.
>
> That's a helpful statement. My idea of a Collation ontology allows to 
> choose any property as sort key (also skos:prefLabel for alphabetical 
> sorting, if we could agree on what alphabetical sorting means). But we 
> could also just add a "ex:sortKey" propery.
>
>> In theory, it would be better to add this value to the Broader relation
>> (Narrowers are generally deducted from broaders). Going further than a
> > simple value linked to concepts can be justified by theoretical 
> examples
> > but probably only very rare examples from "production-level" systems.
>
> Let's better not get too complex.
>
>> I propose to go further with the simple solution in a "community
>> extension" to SKOS (I wrote you separately about this).
>> Additional property "sortKey" to Concept.
>
> There remains the problem of concepts, that exist in multiple concepts 
> schemes. I'd prefer not to have one universal sort key, but to link the
> sort key property to one concept scheme:
>
> <my> a skos:ConceptScheme
>   ex:sortBy <my:key> .
>
> <your> a skos:ConceptScheme
>   ex:sortBy <your:customProperty> .
>
> <x> a skos:Concept ;
> <my:key> 2;
> <your:customProperty> 5;
>
> If your notations are numerical, you can just say
>
> <my> a skos:ConceptScheme
>   ex:sortBy <skos:notation> .
>
> > If numerical XSD type, numerical sort; if alphabetical: alphabetical
> > sort; if other ordered data type: sort along that data type.
>
> Sure data types could help to sort, but I don't understand how to 
> apply this in practice. There is also the problem of what defines 
> "alphabetical". Unicode collation? Unicode character codes? Locale 
> settings?
>
>> Label in the user language are then used as a second sort key (and as a
>> primary one when there is no sortKey for the Concept).
>
> There is no concept of "user language" in SKOS. There are just labels 
> with languages, all equal.
>
>> Idea: the sortKey could also be a reference to an orderedCollection:
>> this would mean, if you need to sort this Concept, use its place in this
>> orderedCollection (and not another as a Concept can be in many 
>> collections)
>>
>> Have a very nice day!
>
> Cheers
> Jakob
>
Received on Thursday, 20 January 2011 17:58:25 UTC

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