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Re: [Dbpedia-discussion] Using DBpedia resources as skos:Concepts?

From: Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 11:32:10 -0500
Message-ID: <4AF44F8A.4070304@openlinksw.com>
To: Pat Hayes <phayes@ihmc.us>
CC: John Graybeal <jbgraybeal@mindspring.com>, Neubert Joachim <J.Neubert@zbw.eu>, Simon Reinhardt <simon.reinhardt@koeln.de>, SKOS <public-esw-thes@w3.org>
Pat Hayes wrote:
>
> On Nov 5, 2009, at 2:23 PM, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>
>> Pat Hayes wrote:
>>>
>>> On Nov 5, 2009, at 1:25 PM, John Graybeal wrote:
>>> [SNIP]
>>>> Which suggests "owl:sameAs works better for Named Entitites" is not 
>>>> a good practice to follow, doesn't it?
>>>
>>> Agree, this dictum makes no sense at all.
>> Yes, but Named Entities has become a moniker (totally subjective of 
>> course) for People, Places and other so called real things.
>
Pat,
> real things. Hmmm. As opposed, I presume, to not-real things? So is 
> Sherlock Holmes a real thing? He is, after all, a Person. How about 
> the quantity of gravel that I recently ordered to have delivered to my 
> driveway next weekend? Not the gravel, you understand, but the 
> *quantity* of that gravel. Is that a real thing? I have an urgent, 
> real, need to talk about it in communications with others over the Web.
As I said, this is a subjective moniker, not necessarily one I subscribe 
to etc..
>
>>
>> Thus, owl:sameAs between two Concepts (which have URIs) is absolutely 
>> fine, but this then begs the question: when specifically does one use 
>> "skos:exactMatch" etc? Based on my response John (few minutes ago), I 
>> am assuming that the partitioning of so called Named Entities and 
>> Subject Matter Concepts was the line of delineation sought in SKOS 
>> which is about Subject Matter/Heading style Concept Schemes?
>>
>> Personally, owl:sameAs works absolutely fine for a Person, Document, 
>> or Subject Matter Concept or Heading, as long as its about different 
>> Names for the same Thing (in the eyes of the claim maker).
>
> If it is about different names for the same thing, why does that not 
> work everywhere? (It does.)
>
>>
>> Desperately trying to reconcile specs and general language en route 
>> to clarity etc.
>
> Me too. BUt Im also trying to preserve the small amount of clarity 
> that we have managed to achieve.
So at this point the clarity we have is still fundamentally this: 
Different Names for the Same Thing. Beyond that, it gets problematic etc..


Kingsley
>
> Pat
>
>
>>
>> Kingsley
>>>
>>> Pat Hayes
>>>
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Nov 5, 2009, at 1029, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Neubert Joachim wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Simon,
>>>>>> Sorry for causing some misunderstanding: My point was not that 
>>>>>> you SHOULD use skos:Concept. What I rather wanted to say is that 
>>>>>> it does no harm and that it's already in use for named entites.  
>>>>>> This point arises from the suggestion to use 
>>>>>> skos:exactMatch/closeMatch. These properties are 
>>>>>> sub-sub-properties of skos:semanticRelation, which entails that 
>>>>>> subject and object of these properties are instances of 
>>>>>> skos:Concept (since skos:Concept are domain and range for 
>>>>>> skos:semanticRelation).
>>>>>> The great advantage of skos:exactMatch/closeMatch (over 
>>>>>> owl:sameAs) is that their semantic doesn't smush the resources 
>>>>>> with all their properties (like the administrative properties you 
>>>>>> mentioned).
>>>>> Joachim,
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you mean by "smush" are you referring to the union 
>>>>> expansion that results from combing data from all the data sources 
>>>>> in the owl:sameAs relation? I pose my question with the 
>>>>> skos:exactMatch description page URL [1] for context. I see 
>>>>> Transitivity and Symmetry, which are factors re. decision making 
>>>>> by reasoners re: union expansion based on participants in the 
>>>>> relation. Note, by "union expansion" I mean the union of all data 
>>>>> associated with the data items in the relation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Primarily, I just want clarification about "smushing",  relative 
>>>>> to the property definition exposed by the skos:exactMatch URI,  
>>>>> more than anything else. Thus, far I've simply assumed that 
>>>>> skos:exactMatch and owl:sameAs have similar implementation 
>>>>> mechanics re. union expansion, but their use targets vary i.e. 
>>>>> skos:exactMatch works better for Concept Schemes (where the world 
>>>>> view assumes Named Entities e.g., "People" aren't Concepts) while 
>>>>> owl:sameAs works better for Named Entities (people, places, and 
>>>>> other typical real more things, so to speak).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Links:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. 
>>>>> http://linkeddata.uriburner.com/about/html/http/www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core%01exactMatch 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Kingsley
>>>>>> [SNIP]
>>>>>> ..
>>>>>> Cheers, Joachim
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Von:* Simon Reinhardt [mailto:simon.reinhardt@koeln.de]
>>>>>> *Gesendet:* Do 05.11.2009 17:35
>>>>>> *An:* Neubert Joachim
>>>>>> *Cc:* Richard Cyganiak; dbpedia-discussion@lists.sourceforge.net; 
>>>>>> SKOS; Pat Hayes
>>>>>> *Betreff:* Re: AW: [Dbpedia-discussion] Using DBpedia resources 
>>>>>> as skos:Concepts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Neubert Joachim wrote:
>>>>>> > In my eyes, it's completely ok to use skos:exactMatch or 
>>>>>> skos:closeMatch
>>>>>> > in a situation like this (I did it myself for the STW Thesaurus 
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> > Economics mapping to dbpedia).
>>>>>> > > Thesauri and classifications are not restricted to abstract 
>>>>>> concepts.
>>>>>> > Some thesauri deal explicitly with individual things, e.g. the 
>>>>>> widely
>>>>>> > used Getty "Thesaurus of Geographic Names" or "Union List of 
>>>>>> Artist
>>>>>> > Names". Other thesauri (like STW) have sections (or facets, as 
>>>>>> Leonard
>>>>>> > put it) on geografic names along with others containing "pure" 
>>>>>> concepts.
>>>>>> > SKOS, as I understand it, is intended to cover all this and to 
>>>>>> be used
>>>>>> > beyond strict class hierarchies or class/individual dichotomies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While I agree that using real-world entities for classification 
>>>>>> is ok I don't think this means you have to declare them to be 
>>>>>> (skos:)concepts. The "has subject" relationship in FRBR [1] for 
>>>>>> example can link a work to a concept but also to places, people, 
>>>>>> events, other works, etc. So in this case you can use real-world 
>>>>>> entities to classify the work (to state what its subjects are) 
>>>>>> but that doesn't mean you declare all those entities to be 
>>>>>> conceptual.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So in my eyes there's still value in keeping (skos:)concepts and 
>>>>>> other things apart. Concepts to me are closer to classes than to 
>>>>>> individuals. And as Dan pointed out concepts have administrative 
>>>>>> data attached - they get created and changed etc. so they're 
>>>>>> basically units of organisation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd therefore prefer using the UMBEL terms or something else for 
>>>>>> aligning real-world entities and concepts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > By the way, some of the SKOS properties (especially the
>>>>>> > prefLabel/altLabel/hiddenLabel semantics) can be useful in a 
>>>>>> broad range
>>>>>> > of applications. Eg. dbpedia itself could be used as a great 
>>>>>> source for
>>>>>> > synonym candidates by mapping the resources to skos:Concept and 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> > labels for dbpedia:redirect resources to skos:altLabel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yup, it has a lot of useful annotation terms. They are all 
>>>>>> declared to be annotation properties and deliberately don't have 
>>>>>> skos:Concept in their domain. So you can use them on anything 
>>>>>> which is great!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Simon
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] http://archive.ifla.org/VII/s13/frbr/frbr_current5.htm#5.2 - 
>>>>>> scroll down to "5.2.3 Subject Relationships"
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Dbpedia-discussion mailing list
>>>>>> Dbpedia-discussion@lists.sourceforge.net
>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/dbpedia-discussion
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Kingsley Idehen          Weblog: 
>>>>> http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
>>>>> President & CEO OpenLink Software     Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------
>>>> I have my new work email address: jgraybeal@ucsd.edu
>>>> --------------
>>>>
>>>> John Graybeal   <mailto:jgraybeal@ucsd.edu>
>>>> phone: 858-534-2162
>>>> Development Manager
>>>> Ocean Observatories Initiative Cyberinfrastructure Project: 
>>>> http://ci.oceanobservatories.org
>>>> Marine Metadata Interoperability Project: http://marinemetadata.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Kingsley Idehen          Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
>> President & CEO OpenLink Software     Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> IHMC                                     (850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973
> 40 South Alcaniz St.           (850)202 4416   office
> Pensacola                            (850)202 4440   fax
> FL 32502                              (850)291 0667   mobile
> phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us       http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes
>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 


Regards,

Kingsley Idehen	      Weblog: http://www.openlinksw.com/blog/~kidehen
President & CEO 
OpenLink Software     Web: http://www.openlinksw.com
Received on Friday, 6 November 2009 16:32:49 GMT

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