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Re: Could ISO-639 languages be defined as skos concepts?

From: Bernard Vatant <bernard.vatant@mondeca.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 20:05:07 +0100
Message-ID: <458ADAE3.8080202@mondeca.com>
To: Sue Ellen Wright <sellenwright@gmail.com>
Cc: Gerhard Budin <gerhard.budin@univie.ac.at>, Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>, Addison Phillips <addison@yahoo-inc.com>, Mark Davis <mark.davis@jtcsv.com>, Thomas Baker <baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de>, public-esw-thes@w3.org

Sue Ellen

Thanks for all this. I will munch over it and try to come up with 
something by the first week of January, when everybody is out of the 
bubbles ... :-)

Bernard

Sue Ellen Wright a écrit :
> Hi, All,
> Indeed, I suspect that lots of people would be delighted if someone 
> wants to go ahead with this for SKOS, provided that no one has already 
> started such a project. Rather than searching for IANA, you want to 
> reference IETF BCP 47, which will be your permanent ID reference for 
> the Language Tags. My contacts on BCP 47 are Felix Sasaki, Addison 
> Phillips, and Mark Davis, but as noted, they may possibly be off line 
> right now, as many people are. On the ISO side, Gerhard Budin is the 
> Chair of ISO TC 37/SC 2, whose WG 2 is responsible for the 639 family 
> of standards. I know that he shares my view that any new initiatives 
> in this area should be oriented toward the set of codes and the syntax 
> rules contained in the current IETF RFC 4645, 4646 and 4647, taking 
> into consideration any successor recommendations of the IETF. (There 
> is, for instance, a current effort to update the recently approved 
> RFCs to bring documents into compliance with the new ISO 639-3, which 
> essentially identifies the SIL Ethnologue codes as the extended codes 
> for comprehensive identification of languages. Also bear in mind (I 
> probably said this in another email) that when it comes to xml:lang, 
> we need to concern ourselves with langauge tags per IETF, not just 
> language codes alone.
>  
> Sorry I'm not coming up with the absolute final answer here, but 
> sooner or later, one of the IETF guys will check his mail!
> Best regards
> Sue Ellen
>
>  
> On 12/21/06, *Bernard Vatant* <bernard.vatant@mondeca.com 
> <mailto:bernard.vatant@mondeca.com>> wrote:
>
>     Sue Ellen
>     > I think you are absolutely right about this not being a significant
>     > task: the main issue is to get a variety of people from a number of
>     > communities of practice to agree on a single approach.
>     Sure enough. But at least we could help proposing at least one. :-)
>     > SKOS would certainly be one avenue. There may be others, and in the
>     > end, we may need more than one flavor in order to conform to
>     > requirements in a given environment, which is OK as long as we
>     can map
>     > successfully back and forth.
>     Yes, this is a good use case for mapping, either SKOS-to-SKOS mapping,
>     or mapping from some RDF dialect to another. You know it's one of my
>     favourite topics.
>     > I'm hoping that sooner or later one of the guys for W3C will weigh
>     > into this discussion and let us know whether they are already
>     > addressing this issue.
>     I've been searching the W3C I18n Activity
>     http://www.w3.org/International/ which looks to me the place where
>     such
>     things should happen, but it looks like at first sight there is no
>     connection between this activity and the SW activity. I will
>     investigate
>     further.
>     > It's a bad time of year to hope to catch everybody monitoring their
>     > email!
>     Indeed. By the way, Happy Xmas to all :-)
>
>     Bernard
>     > There will be an ISO TC 37 meeting in January where we'll be
>     > addressing issues regarding our own metadata registry, and this will
>     > surely come up.
>     > Best regards
>     > Sue Ellen
>     >
>     > On 12/21/06, *Bernard Vatant* < bernard.vatant@mondeca.com
>     <mailto:bernard.vatant@mondeca.com>
>     > <mailto:bernard.vatant@mondeca.com
>     <mailto:bernard.vatant@mondeca.com>>> wrote:
>     >
>     >     Hi Sue Ellen
>     >
>     >     Thanks for your insights. Do you have pointers to the
>     discussions you
>     >     mention, and/or any contact with people taking part in them,
>     and who
>     >     would see some interest in RDF-ization of  those resources?
>     (assuming
>     >     such a class definition is satisfiable).
>     >     Actually when one looks at
>     >     http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry
>     >     < http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry>, the
>     >     technical
>     >     task of migrating its content into RDF, as long as a relevant
>     >     vocabulary
>     >     is defined, is quite trivial.
>     >     After that it's mainly a political issue. :-)
>     >     But there is a point that has not been answered so far in my
>     original
>     >     question. Would SKOS a relevant format for such a
>     representation?
>     >
>     >     Bernard
>     >
>     >
>     >     Sue Ellen Wright a écrit :
>     >     > Hi, All,
>     >     > There's serious discussions going on concerning the IETF
>     >     language tag
>     >     > subtag registry and the ISO implementations of the 639
>     family of
>     >     > codes, so I think it makes sense to coordinate any efforts
>     in this
>     >     > direction with the folks working on those two sets of
>     standards.
>     >     IETF
>     >     > 4647 spells out means for matching codes, but it would
>     make things a
>     >     > lot simpler if we have a more or less standard format for
>     >     representing
>     >     > them in rdf.
>     >     > Bye for now
>     >     > Sue Ellen
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     > On 12/20/06, *Thomas Baker* <baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de
>     <mailto:baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de>
>     >     <mailto:baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de
>     <mailto:baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de> >
>     >     > <mailto:baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de
>     <mailto:baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de>
>     >     <mailto:baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de
>     <mailto:baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de>> >> wrote:
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >     On Mon, Dec 18, 2006 at 06:54:18PM +0100, Bernard
>     Vatant wrote:
>     >     >     > ISO-639 languages are used in XML and in RDF, and in
>     SKOS, via
>     >     >     their
>     >     >     > code used as value of xml:lang attribute.
>     >     >     > But for various applications, it would be interesting to
>     >     define
>     >     >     those
>     >     >     > languages as proper RDF resources.
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     > So far, the only attempt to do so I've found in RDF is
>     >     >     > http://downlode.org/rdf/iso-639/ and the description it
>     >     provides is
>     >     >     > quite basic.
>     >     >     ...
>     >     >
>     >     >     > So, we have public concepts, a lot of data to mine, we
>     >     have use
>     >     >     cases,
>     >     >     > all we need is a namespace to which append ISO 639
>     codes to
>     >     >     forge URIs.
>     >     >     > Who is likely to host and maintain that namespace?
>     >     >     > http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/language#
>     >     >     <http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/language#>  ?
>     >     >     > http://purl.org/dc/language/
>     <http://purl.org/dc/language/>  ?
>     >     >     ...
>     >     >     > Since I think we can wait for quite a while before ISO
>     >     delivers
>     >     >     such a
>     >     >     > thing in its own namespace - and I would be happy to
>     be proven
>     >     >     wrong
>     >     >     > here - I wonder what kind of initiative could move
>     this thing
>     >     >     forward.
>     >     >     > Is it in DCMI intention to define those instances in
>     its own
>     >     >     namespace
>     >     >     > (Tom, any clues on that?).
>     >     >
>     >     >     Well, I agree with the need :-)
>     >     >
>     >     >     Several years ago, we considered opening a DCMI
>     service for the
>     >     >     "registration" of URIs identifying controlled
>     vocabularies for
>     >     >     use as encoding schemes in metadata.  While the demand
>     for such
>     >     >     a service was clear, the project did not look
>     maintainable,
>     >     >     sustainable, and scalable.
>     >     >
>     >     >     Unless URIs are coined "once and for all" and "with no
>     >     >     guarantees" (and how useful is that?), it is not clear
>     >     >     how such a namespace host should operate over time.  The
>     >     >     impulse to "just do it" comes up against hard questions.
>     >     >     Even just maintaining URIs for entities in a separately
>     >     >     maintained ISO standard would involve a significant
>     commitment.
>     >     >
>     >     >     Tom
>     >     >
>     >     >     --
>     >     >     Tom Baker - tbaker@tbaker.de <mailto:tbaker@tbaker.de>
>     <mailto:tbaker@tbaker.de <mailto:tbaker@tbaker.de>>
>     >     <mailto:tbaker@tbaker.de <mailto:tbaker@tbaker.de>
>     <mailto:tbaker@tbaker.de <mailto:tbaker@tbaker.de>>> -
>     >     >     baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de
>     <mailto:baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de>
>     >     <mailto:baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de
>     <mailto:baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de>> <mailto:
>     >     baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de
>     <mailto:baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de>
>     <mailto:baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de
>     <mailto:baker@sub.uni-goettingen.de>>>
>     >
>     >
>     > <mailto:sewright@neo.rr.com <mailto:sewright@neo.rr.com>>
>
>
>     < http://mondeca.wordpress.com/>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Sue Ellen Wright
> Institute for Applied Linguistics
> Kent State University
> Kent OH 44242 USA
> sellenwright@gmail.com <mailto:sellenwright@gmail.com>
> swright@kent.edu <mailto:swright@kent.edu>
> sewright@neo.rr.com <mailto:sewright@neo.rr.com>
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-- 

*Bernard Vatant
*Knowledge Engineering
----------------------------------------------------
*Mondeca**
*3, cité Nollez 75018 Paris France
Web:    www.mondeca.com <http://www.mondeca.com>
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Mail:     bernard.vatant@mondeca.com <mailto:bernard.vatant@mondeca.com>
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Received on Thursday, 21 December 2006 19:05:22 GMT

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