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Re: what do you mean, e-gov?

From: Mick Phythian <mick.phythian@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 22:15:13 +0100
Message-ID: <CACBN7wEj4cRLgXnHDQFYznDmo3WLapPDHQbx6uFs_DayHoyVHg@mail.gmail.com>
To: paoladimaio10@googlemail.com
Cc: John Erickson <olyerickson@gmail.com>, "eGov IG (Public)" <public-egov-ig@w3.org>
All,

I'm sorry that Paola is feeling on her own. I do not think that should be
the case.

This debate arose because some members assumed that e-democracy was part of
the definition of e-government. I stirred the mess by leading it into a
definition of e-democracy etc.Having spent a number of years examining the
definitions I knew there were issues as to how people viewed e-government

Steve took us back to his original definition of e-government which focused
on services. I admire Paola's stand that e-democracy (and thus democracy)
must be components of any definition the group use.

I would like to support Paola's move to a more transformational definition
but I believe if we stick to the orginial one we can carry on, and by using
good applications, improve services and ultimately democratic
participation. Government, ouside of a revolutionary situation, is reactive
not proactive and that reaction needs to be developed.

We just need to be clear which defintion we are using and what those words
mean to us all (currently), the rest will have to be encouraged ny
providing guidance/best practice.

Mick

On 7 May 2012 21:52, Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you John
>
> (let me state clearly that I am obviously speaking for myself) and that I
> am being vocal because I research (and care deeply for) the web, and
> information technology in general, especially in relation to their critical
> role in informing and enabling human evolution and civil society
> and support informed decisions
>
> ( Humanity is capable of making fundamental mistakes when people do not
> manage to see all the shades because they are blinded or too busy to pay
> attention to what is happening, or get sidetracked by other issues)
>
> Today we can exercise the option  to vent our worries and make collective
> decisions better than say, a hundred years ago.
>
>
> So, I understand that this thread is about trying to pin down a more
>> specific definition of eGovernment
>
>
> thats one of the issues that came up in discussions
>
>
>
>> --- which is interesting, because
>> that didn't seem to be a problem for the previous manifestation of
>> this IG, which led to the W3C GLD WG.
>>
>
>  some of the related issues and questions asked 'how do we know the
> working definition is what this IG needs/wants' have not been answered.
>
>  the fact that nobody on the list has actually looked into how useful the
> existing working definition is, does not mean what we have so far works
> (just that nobody has evaluated it against agreed criteria)
>
>  the working definition, as it is, does not work for me for example (I
> engage primarily in transformative practices) because it does not make it
> clear enough the role of technology in enabling the population to
> participate in egovernance, it does not make it clear enough that the role
> of web based technology is to support transparency, and inhibit abuse of
> power and corruption etc (dont want too rant too long about this, but you
> get the idea what kind of egovernment technology and practices I am
> thinking of)
>
>>
>> I'd like to take exception with the comment, "...Its a complex issue,
>> so far this IG does not seem to have a procedure in place to enable
>> the IG members for governance..." since the W3C eGov IG functions
>> within the context of the W3C and by definition has well-defined
>> governance. It's not perfect, but it is an effective process built on
>> consultation and consensus.
>>
>
> sorry - my ignorance. I was thinking more like: how can the facilitators
> ensure that the members of this group can have direct impact in the IG
> agenda?  for example, there are several great experts on transformative
> eGovernment that, in my personal view, could be consulted/invited to
> participate in this IG to help us steer, lead and influence the transition
> from, say, traditional models of Governance (opaque, elitarian, prone to
> corruption and abuse of power, manipulative, built around misinformation or
> manipulation of information and propaganda)  to a new models of eGovernance
> (transparent, participative, built around comprehensive information and
> plurality of knowledge etc etc)
> which web technologies, when well designed, can provide at low cost.
>
>
>> I guess I'd like to understand where we are headed with this
>> discussion.
>
>
> good point, me too :-)
>
>
>> Are we ultimately trying to define a clearer eGov IG
>> agenda, for example?
>>
>
> I'd say yes, but also how the agenda is set. How can we schedule talks,
> topics, action plans etc.
>
> How can the work of this IG contribute to speed up the transitions to more
> engaged and accountable civil societies all over the world.
>
> And what kind of people are we looking to reach out to.  and probably more
>
> :-)
>
>
>
> Thanks to you!
>
> PDM
>
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 12:01 PM, Paola Di Maio <paola.dimaio@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > John
>> >
>> > thanks for reminder of relevant  snippet in the charter, the discussion
>> is
>> > zig zaging a bit, which is sometimes an outcome of evolutionary
>> processes.
>> >
>> > Several questions were asked on the list in relation to the scope and
>> > processes of these IG,
>> > various threads came up to deal with these questions
>> >
>> > if i remember correctly, this particular thread attempts to get members
>> > provide input into how to  define e-Government (since there is no
>> evidence
>> > how the existing working definition came into being, and whether such a
>> > working definition is relevant/useful to the list member as it is).
>> >
>> > The discussion started evaluating the relation e-government -
>> e-democracy.
>> >
>> > According to literature (see related threads), is necessary to define
>> > e-government meaningfully within the context of legitimacy (as mandated
>> by
>> > the UN for example)
>> >
>> > So basically,  members of this IG seem to agree that e-Government is
>>  (and
>> > must be) a function of democracy,
>> >
>> > Its a complex issue,  so far this IG does not seem to have a procedure
>> in
>> > place to enable
>> > the IG members for governance
>> > self referential loop [1])
>> >
>> > So, in a complex socio-technical world worldview, e-democracy is the
>> context
>> > (read: constraint, boundary) for what this IG is about
>> >
>> > (Discuss?)
>> >
>> >
>> > PDM
>> >
>> >
>> > [1]  E-Government, E-Services and Global Processes: Joint IFIP TC 8 and
>> TC 6
>> > International Conferences, EGES 2010 and GISP 2010, Held as Part of WCC
>> > 2010, Brisbane, Australia, September 20-23, 2010, Proceeding Page 66
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 4:39 PM, John Erickson <olyerickson@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Discussions of terms like "e-Democracy" are all well and good,
>> >> but...methinks this is the W3C eGovernment (eGov) IG
>> >> <http://bit.ly/Kf6vai> and "...is chartered to serve as a connector
>> >> among people, especially government employees, looking for ways to use
>> >> or promote the use of W3C technologies to improve government services
>> >> and operations. We believe these technologies can provide significant
>> >> benefit to governments of all sizes, including city, regional, and
>> >> national governments (and between governments), in all parts of the
>> >> world. We also recognize that with new technologies and a changing
>> >> world, new policy concerns arise; this group will also facilitate
>> >> discussion to focus understanding of policy and security matters
>> >> related to W3C technologies..."
>> >>
>> >> Sorry to be pedantic...I'm just lost why we have this continuing
>> thread.
>> >>
>> >> John
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 4:33 PM, Mick Phythian <mick.phythian@gmail.com
>> >
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Thanks Steven,
>> >> >
>> >> > I think that's rounded enough to avoid any of the broader attributes
>> >> > given
>> >> > in other 'definitions' of e-democracy.
>> >> >
>> >> > Best,
>> >> >
>> >> > Mick http://greatemancipator.com
>> >> >
>> >> > On 4 May 2012 20:56, Steven Clift <clift@e-democracy.org> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As the one who coined the shortened term "e-democracy" in 1994
>> before
>> >> >> e-government, e-business, etc. were used, here is what I came up
>> with
>> >> >> on
>> >> >> that one:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://dowire.org/wiki/E-democracy
>> >> >>
>> >> >> E-democracy represents the use of information and communication
>> >> >> technologies and strategies by democratic actors within political
>> and
>> >> >> governance processes of local communities, nations and on the
>> >> >> international
>> >> >> stage. Democratic sectors/actors include governments, elected
>> >> >> officials, the
>> >> >> media, political organizations, and citizen/voters.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> To many, e-democracy suggests greater and more active citizen
>> >> >> participation enabled by the Internet, mobile communications, and
>> other
>> >> >> technologies in today’s representative democracy as well as through
>> >> >> more
>> >> >> participatory or direct forms of citizen involvement in addressing
>> >> >> public
>> >> >> challenges.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (Before sharing this definition, I used to simply say "e" or
>> electronic
>> >> >> and any definition of democracy that you use. :-))
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Steven Clift
>> >> >> clift@e-democracy.org  - +1 612 234 7072
>> >> >> http://stevenclift.com - @democracy
>> >> >> http://e-democracy.org - @edemo
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > Mick Phythian PhD
>> >> >
>> >> > http://greatemancipator.com
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> John S. Erickson, Ph.D.
>> >> Director, Web Science Operations
>> >> Tetherless World Constellation (RPI)
>> >> <http://tw.rpi.edu> <olyerickson@gmail.com>
>> >> Twitter & Skype: olyerickson
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> John S. Erickson, Ph.D.
>> Director, Web Science Operations
>> Tetherless World Constellation (RPI)
>> <http://tw.rpi.edu> <olyerickson@gmail.com>
>> Twitter & Skype: olyerickson
>>
>
>


-- 
Mick Phythian PhD

http://greatemancipator.com
Received on Monday, 7 May 2012 21:15:44 GMT

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