- From: Bernadette Farias Lóscio <bfl@cin.ufpe.br>
- Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 17:57:34 -0300
- To: Deirdre Lee <deirdre@derilinx.com>
- Cc: Data on the Web Best Practices Working Group <public-dwbp-wg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CANx1PzzMO4emJYM9grXDAi9=GocTe=vL5hFUQ7FgO3MVAsp2Tg@mail.gmail.com>
Hi Deirdre,
Thanks for the message! I think it's better to keep the example the way it
is now.
Maybe we can just include a sentence mentioning that "the data is already
in a locale-specific format and because of this it is necessary to
include locale parameters metadata. "
cheers,
Bernadette
2016-08-25 10:56 GMT-03:00 Deirdre Lee <deirdre@derilinx.com>:
> Hi all,
>
> Thanks for all the comments. In light of the Directors' Call on Monday, I
> think we need to draw a line under this so that we can ensure the CR doc in
> place for tomorrow's meeting.
>
> Addison has approved all comments, which addresses directors' concern.
>
> The example in place does depict 'locale-neutral data representations', so
> in that way is fit for purpose. Even if it does use metadata.
>
> Alternatively would be to *rewrite *the example, taking into account
> Addison's specific example of bus-fare. Or directly *replace *the example
> text with the following:
>
> For example, rather than storing "€2000,00" as a string, it's strongly
> preferred to exchange a data structure such as:
>
> …"price" {
> "value": 2000.00,
> "currency": "EUR"
> }
> …
>
>
> I hope I have captured the options succinctly and that this can be decided
> today, so that Phil can finalise the doc at his side.
>
> Cheers,
> Deirdre
>
>
>
>
> On 25/08/2016 01:37, Annette Greiner wrote:
>
> Hi Bernadette,
>
> Of course you're right that "2015-05-05" can also be data, but in this
> example it is metadata so it doesn't really function as an example of what
> the BP is mostly about. We could use the same example as is already in
> there from Addison, maybe just call it a bus fare. I'll defer to others
> more familiar with vocabularies for the dct:conformsTo question.
>
> -Annette
>
> On 8/24/16 11:38 AM, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
>
> Hi Annette,
>
> thanks for your answer! Just a brief explanation: I understood that "2015-05-05"
> is also *data* and because of this I said that it is an example of
> locale-neutral representation.
>
> I have just two more questions:
>
> - I am still not sure if we should keep "dct:conformsTo". Should we keep
> it?
>
> - I understand that to have an example of locale-neutral representation we
> should present some instances from the dataset. But I don't see how to do
> this considering the dataset attributes and their corresponding data types
> [1]. Could you please give me an example?
>
> cheers,
> Bernadette
>
> [1] http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/dwbp-example.html#dataset-
> structural-metadata
>
>
>
>
> 2016-08-24 14:32 GMT-03:00 Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov>:
>
>> I think it's a fine idea to put both the locale-neutral and the metadata
>> approaches into example 13, but the metadata is not an example of a
>> locale-neutral representation of the *data*. We need to show that in the
>> data itself.
>>
>> -Annette
>>
>> On 8/24/16 4:56 AM, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> @Phil, thanks a lot for making the updates! @Annette and Addison thanks
>> for the comments and suggestions!
>>
>> I agree with the changes made until now, but I'd like to answer the
>> following comment:
>>
>> Finally, the example marked prominently as Example 13 looks like the
>>>> primary suggestion for implementing the BP, which it isn't anymore. I
>>>> think the 2000 Euro example should be at least as prominently marked.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I sympathise but I'm going to have to leave that to the editors. It can
>>> be done by simply adding class="example" to the <pre> element. But, doing
>>> that then means that the example numbers will be out of step with the BP
>>> numbers from that that point on, which I *think* editors have been anxious
>>> to avoid?
>>>
>>>
>> I don't think its a good idea to change the numbers of the examples. One
>> solution could be to make some changes on the example 13.
>>
>> Example 13 shows both the use of locale-neutral representation and
>> locale-parameters metadata. We have the tag "xsd:date" in 'dct:issued
>> "2015-05-05"^^xsd:date', but we also have 'dct:conformsTo <
>> http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards/iso8601.htm>' to indicate the
>> standard adopted as date format.
>>
>> :stops-2015-05-05
>>
>> a dcat:Dataset ;
>> dct:title "Bus stops of MyCity" ;
>> dcat:keyword "transport","mobility","bus" ;
>> dct:issued "2015-05-05"^^xsd:date ;
>> dcat:contactPoint <http://data.mycity.example.com/transport/contact>
>> ;
>> dct:temporal <http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/year/2015> ;
>> dct:spatial <http://www.geonames.org/3399415> ;
>> dct:publisher :transport-agency-mycity ;
>> dct:accrualPeriodicity <http://purl.org/linked-data/s
>> dmx/2009/code#freq-A> ;
>> dcat:theme :mobility ;
>> dcat:distribution :stops-2015-05-05.csv ;
>> dct:language <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/en> ,
>> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/pt> ;
>> dct:conformsTo <http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards/iso8601.htm>
>> ;
>> .
>>
>> Should we have both ou just xsd:date? If I understood correct, I think we
>> should keep just xsd:date. In this case, we can also change the example
>> description to mention that we are using a locale-neutral representation
>> for date and a locale-parameter metadata (dct:language) to specify the
>> languages in which dataset is published. See the suggestion below:
>>
>> The example below shows the use of xsd:date providing a local-neutral
>> representation for the issue date of the bus stops dataset (
>> stops-2015-05-05). Considering that the data from the bus stops dataset
>> is already in a locale-specific format, then the property dct:language
>> is used to declare the languages the dataset is published in. If the
>> dataset is available in multiple languages, use multiple values for this
>> property.
>>
>> :stops-2015-05-05
>>
>> a dcat:Dataset ;
>> dct:title "Bus stops of MyCity" ;
>> dcat:keyword "transport","mobility","bus" ;
>> dct:issued "2015-05-05"^^xsd:date ;
>> dcat:contactPoint <http://data.mycity.example.com/transport/contact>
>> ;
>> dct:temporal <http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/year/2015> ;
>> dct:spatial <http://www.geonames.org/3399415> ;
>> dct:publisher :transport-agency-mycity ;
>> dct:accrualPeriodicity <http://purl.org/linked-data/s
>> dmx/2009/code#freq-A> ;
>> dcat:theme :mobility ;
>> dcat:distribution :stops-2015-05-05.csv ;
>> dct:language <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/en> ,
>> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/pt> ;
>>
>>
>> Please, let me know what do you think about this.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Berna
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -Annette
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 8/23/16 7:11 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Phil,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks. This looks good to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Addison
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Phil Archer [mailto:phila@w3.org]
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 3:29 AM
>>>>>> To: Phillips, Addison <addison@lab126.com>; Deirdre Lee
>>>>>> <deirdre@derilinx.com>; Bernadette Farias Lóscio <bfl@cin.ufpe.br>;
>>>>>> Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov>
>>>>>> Cc: ishida@w3.org; public-dwbp-comments@w3.org; www International
>>>>>> <www-international@w3.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral
>>>>>> representation #187
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks again Addison,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pls see below.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 22/08/2016 18:36, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Phil,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This looks good. A few comments.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Rather than providing your own definition for 'locale', you might
>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> use of the one we provide in LTLI [1].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Done
>>>>>> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#locale_parameter
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. The "why" is still missing something. I would suggest adding a
>>>>>>> new first
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> paragraph explaining locale-neutral first. Something like:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Data values that are machine-readable and not specific to any
>>>>>>> particular
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> language or culture are more durable and less open to
>>>>>> misinterpretation than
>>>>>> values that use one of the many different cultural representations.
>>>>>> By using a
>>>>>> locale-neutral format, systems avoid the need to establish specific
>>>>>> interchange rules that vary according to the language or location of
>>>>>> the user.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When the data is already in a locale-specific format, providing
>>>>>>> locale
>>>>>>> parameters... <rest of existing text>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Done, exactly as you suggest
>>>>>> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With luck... the doc gets a green light from you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks again
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hope that helps,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Addison
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/ltli/#locale
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Phil Archer [mailto:phila@w3.org]
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 2:34 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Deirdre Lee <deirdre@derilinx.com>; Phillips, Addison
>>>>>>>> <addison@lab126.com>; Bernadette Farias Lóscio <bfl@cin.ufpe.br>;
>>>>>>>> Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov>
>>>>>>>> Cc: ishida@w3.org; public-dwbp-comments@w3.org; www International
>>>>>>>> <www-international@w3.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
>>>>>>>> locale-neutral representation #187
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have taken further steps on this. The result can be seen at
>>>>>>>> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. Addision's text used more or less verbatim; 1a. taken account of
>>>>>>>> Annette's suggestion; 1b. replaced inline links to BCP47 and CLDR
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> references 2.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> title of the BP changed to Use locale-neutral data representations 3.
>>>>>>>> moved to Data Formats section as resolved in WG meeting on Friday;
>>>>>>>> 4.
>>>>>>>> added R- FormatMachineRead to list of evidence and thereby updated
>>>>>>>> the UCR cross matching; 5. updated the Challenges SVG diagram; 6.
>>>>>>>> updated my Pull request.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> NB, I *retained* the old ID for the BP so that any links to
>>>>>>>> #LocaleParametersMetadata will still work. I know there are some of
>>>>>>>> these, for example, in the Share-PSI project.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> HTH
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Phil.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 22/08/2016 08:52, Deirdre Lee wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> HI,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you for your comments Addison. I think they make sense and
>>>>>>>>> should be straight-forward to incorporate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The title of the BP should probably also be updated to something
>>>>>>>>> like 'Provide locale-neutral data'
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Phil and DWBP editors, in Friday's meeting we also agreed to move
>>>>>>>>> BP3 to the Data Formats section from the Metadata section, which
>>>>>>>>> would make it BP14, right?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Deirdre
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 19/08/2016 17:39, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Phil,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for starting on this. I think the pull request is a good
>>>>>>>>>> start.
>>>>>>>>>> I have some comments on it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My main concern is that this BP is really backwards. It recommends
>>>>>>>>>> to "locale parameter metadata" and then says that the simplest way
>>>>>>>>>> to do this is to use locale-neutral formats. The recommendation
>>>>>>>>>> should be more like "use locale-neutral formats or provide
>>>>>>>>>> locale/language information where that's not possible". The pull
>>>>>>>>>> request captures the use of locale-neutral, but doesn't really
>>>>>>>>>> explain about when to provide locale and language information.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I would change this:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> <p class="practicedesc">Provide metadata about locale parameters
>>>>>>>>>> (date, time, and number formats, language).</p>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To say:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> <p class="practicedesc">Use locale-neutral data structures and
>>>>>>>>>> values, or, where that is not possible, provide metadata about the
>>>>>>>>>> locale used by data values.</p>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I would change:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> <p>The simplest method is to use local-neutral representations of
>>>>>>>>>> the actual data, and then add metadata to provide relevant locale
>>>>>>>>>> information. For example, rather than storing "€2000.00" as a
>>>>>>>>>> string, it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure such
>>>>>>>>>> as:</p>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To say:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> <p>Most common data representations are locale neutral. For
>>>>>>>>>> example, XML Schema types such as xsd:integer and xsd: date are
>>>>>>>>>> intended for locale-neutral data interchange. Using locale-neutral
>>>>>>>>>> representations allows the data values to be processed accurately
>>>>>>>>>> without complex parsing or misinterpretation and also allows the
>>>>>>>>>> data to be presented in the format most comfortable for the
>>>>>>>>>> consumer of the data. For example, rather than storing "€2000,00"
>>>>>>>>>> as a string, it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure
>>>>>>>>>> such as:</p>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, note the misspelling of "locale-neutral" in the pull
>>>>>>>>>> request.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I would then go on to add some text about when locale parameters
>>>>>>>>>> are needed. Something like:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Some datasets contain values that are not or cannot be rendered
>>>>>>>>>> into a locale-neutral format. This is particularly true of any
>>>>>>>>>> natural language text values. For each data field that can contain
>>>>>>>>>> locale affected or natural language text, there should be an
>>>>>>>>>> associated language tag used to indicate the language and locale
>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> data.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This locale information can be used in parsing the data or to
>>>>>>>>>> ensure proper presentation and processing of the value by the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> consumer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (Sorry for not generating a pull request of my own)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Addison
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Phil Archer [mailto:phila@w3.org]
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 8:37 AM
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Bernadette Farias Lóscio <bfl@cin.ufpe.br>; Annette Greiner
>>>>>>>>>>> <amgreiner@lbl.gov>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Phillips, Addison <addison@lab126.com>; ishida@w3.org;
>>>>>>>>>>> public-dwbp- comments@w3.org; www International
>>>>>>>>>>> <www-international@w3.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
>>>>>>>>>>> locale-neutral representation #187
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I took an action on today's call to try and address this in BP3.
>>>>>>>>>>> You can see the results at
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMe
>>>>>> tadata
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This uses some of Addison's text directly and highlights the value
>>>>>>>>>>> of the xsd datatypes - but retains enough of the original BP for
>>>>>>>>>>> it to be an amendment rather than a whole new one - I hope.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This addresses most of the resolution taken today [1] but I have
>>>>>>>>>>> not moved the BP to the formats section. I leave that to the
>>>>>>>>>>> editors who may want to make further changes - or argue for it to
>>>>>>>>>>> be left where it is, or add references from the formats section
>>>>>>>>>>> or, or,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> or...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've created the Pull Request https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Phil.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 15/08/2016 17:28, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Ishida,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This comment [1] is still under discussion [4] and we'd like to
>>>>>>>>>>>> ask your opinion about two of our proposals:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1. to include locale-neutral representation ideas as part of BP3
>>>>>>>>>>>> [2], or 2. to include a paragraph at the introduction of Section
>>>>>>>>>>>> 8.8 Data Formats [3] to discuss the relevance of having
>>>>>>>>>>>> local-neutral representations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We also discussed the proposal of having a new BP and we agreed
>>>>>>>>>>>> that we won't have a lot of time for a broader review of the new
>>>>>>>>>>>> BP and to collect feedback from the community.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot!
>>>>>>>>>>>> DWBP editors
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016Jul/0028.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> [2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMe
>>>>>>>> tadata
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats
>>>>>>>>>>>> [4]
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/
>>>>>>>>>>>> 0009.
>>>>>>>>>>>> ht
>>>>>>>>>>>> ml
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2016-08-04 23:26 GMT+02:00 Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Addison,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your response, and it does make sense. I think what
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> am still missing is whether there is guidance we can point to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to how to represent the "locale-neutral" data so that it can
>>>>>>>>>>>>> most easily be made locale specific by existing tools. You
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mention "pre-made standards for the basic data types". Is there
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a recommended list we could
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> reference?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your help!
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Annette
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/4/16 12:31 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Annette,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the note. This is a personal reply not on behalf of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the WG.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Locale neutral formats are quite common on the Web and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Internet in general. One familiar format referenced by your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> document, for example, is XML Schema. While the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> representations
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> of numbers, dates, and the like in XML Schema would be "more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appropriate" for some languages/locales than others if given
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> plain text, what distinguishes them is that they are all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine readable and intended to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> be read by machines for later processing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The display of values is a separate, local, concern for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> data's consumer. This necessarily means choosing specific
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> separators (such as decimal separators) over other, more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> localized values. Save for "free
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> text"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> (natural language) data, most data formats are locale neutral
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and these include things like JSON-LD, XML Schema, CSV, and so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> forth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not every possible data structure or data value is, of course,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> covered fully. For example, in my day job (I work at Amazon),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we have many different common measurement units defined
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> internally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To transmit these in a locale-neutral manner, we need to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> construct our own data schemas and identifiers. There are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> profoundly many ways to measure shoes, dresses, auto parts,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hats, drone propellers, and so forth. But it would be a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nightmare to have to deal with localized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> presentation formats on top of that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But there are pre-made standards for the basic data types and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these are what are needed to build almost any data structure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessary for global interchange of data.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does that make sense?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Addison
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Addison Phillips
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon) Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Internationalization is not a feature.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is an architecture.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Annette Greiner [mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 12:04 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: ishida@w3.org; public-dwbp-comments@w3.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: www International <www-international@w3.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> locale-neutral representation #187
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> document, but we would like some clarification of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of locale neutrality.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grouping symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc., and you give an example of a locale-neutral data
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> structure for monetary
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> values.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But this structure alone does not appear to address
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> differences in decimal symbol, grouping symbol, number of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grouping digits, or digit shapes. It does provide a mechanism
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to separately specify the units, and the example uses an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ISO-4217 currency code, both of which we agree are good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ideas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there a broad standard (beyond just monetary) for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> addressing the other symbol/representation issues you raised
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that we can address
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> briefly in our best practice?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Do you consider SI units consistent with a locale-neutral
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approach?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there a locale-neutral standard for representing decimal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> numbers (perhaps using a period and no grouping, as in your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -Annette
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, ishida@w3.org wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [raised by aphillips]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best practice #3 introduces itself as:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applications to work accurately with things like dates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> currencies and numbers that may look similar but have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different meanings in different locales.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in a locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> storing the string "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like the following is strongly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferred:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "price" {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "value": 2000.00,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "currency": "EUR"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grouping
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because there can be wide variation (sometimes open to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> misinterpretation) that sending a locale neutral format is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferred for data values.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Note also btw that the position of the currency symbol is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dependent on the locale. In France it would be normal to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> write
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annette Greiner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services Lawrence Berkeley National
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laboratory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Annette Greiner
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services Lawrence Berkeley National
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Laboratory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Phil Archer
>>>>>>>>>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://philarcher.org
>>>>>>>>>>> +44 (0)7887 767755 <%2B44%20%280%297887%20767755>
>>>>>>>>>>> @philarcher1
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Phil Archer
>>>>>>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://philarcher.org
>>>>>>>> +44 (0)7887 767755 <%2B44%20%280%297887%20767755>
>>>>>>>> @philarcher1
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phil Archer
>>>>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://philarcher.org
>>>>>> +44 (0)7887 767755 <%2B44%20%280%297887%20767755>
>>>>>> @philarcher1
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil Archer
>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>
>>> http://philarcher.org
>>> +44 (0)7887 767755
>>> @philarcher1
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bernadette Farias Lóscio
>> Centro de Informática
>> Universidade Federal de Pernambuco - UFPE, Brazil
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------------
>>
>>
>> --
>> Annette Greiner
>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Bernadette Farias Lóscio
> Centro de Informática
> Universidade Federal de Pernambuco - UFPE, Brazil
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------
>
>
> --
> Annette Greiner
> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------
> Deirdre Lee, CEO & Founder
> Derilinx - Linked & Open Data Solutions
>
> Web: www.derilinx.com
> Email: deirdre@derilinx.com
> Address: 11/12 Baggot Court, Dublin 2, D02 F891
> Tel: +353 (0)1 254 4316
> Mob: +353 (0)87 417 2318
> Linkedin: ie.linkedin.com/in/leedeirdre/
> Twitter: @deirdrelee
>
>
--
Bernadette Farias Lóscio
Centro de Informática
Universidade Federal de Pernambuco - UFPE, Brazil
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Received on Thursday, 25 August 2016 20:58:27 UTC