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Re: Data "on" the Web vs Data "in" the Web

From: Steven Adler <adler1@us.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2014 11:12:01 -0400
To: "Christophe Guéret" <christophe.gueret@dans.knaw.nl>
Cc: "Augusto Herrmann" <augusto.herrmann@gmail.com>, hellmatic@gmail.com, "public-dwbp-wg" <public-dwbp-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <OF29D39DD6.403B9D48-ON85257CA5.00537FC6@us.ibm.com>
Now I understand. Let me ask the next question that I have been pondering:

Last year Facebook announced its graph search function, choosing the power of semantic search without RDF.  What I have learned from this WG experience so far is that W3C doesn't really create open standards. It creates and enhances and promotes W3C standards. 

The rest of the world often thanks W3C for its ideas and then implements those ideas in different ways.  Can we, this WG, imagine creating or recommending standards that are objective - that describe things to do that anyone can do with or without RDF?

 
Regards,

Steve


----- Original Message -----
From: Christophe Guéret [christophe.gueret@dans.knaw.nl]
Sent: 03/24/2014 04:01 PM CET
To: Steven Adler
Cc: Christophe Gueret <christophe.gueret@dans.knaw.nl>; Augusto Herrmann <augusto.herrmann@gmail.com>; "hellmatic@gmail.com" <hellmatic@gmail.com>; public-dwbp-wg <public-dwbp-wg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Data "on" the Web vs Data "in" the Web



> So now we are creating W3C standards for publishing data as unstructured
> text on websites?
>
The message of this presentation is actually quite the opposite ;-) Instead
the idea is to use the Web as platform to host the data. That is, instead
of publishing datasets as resources use URIs and HTTP to gain access to
specific (structured !) elements of data sets which can be linked and
re-used. There has to be a structure and there has to be links possibility
but this does not mean that RDF is the only model that will work out and
that RDF/XML is the only way to serialise data.

Is that what's in the charter?  Honestly I have always found the charter to
> be confusing. Maybe it was intended to be machine readable. ;-
>
> :-)

Cheers,
Christophe




>
> Regards,
>
> Steve
> ------------------------------
>
> *  From: *Christophe Guéret [christophe.gueret@dans.knaw.nl]
> *  Sent: *03/24/2014 03:42 PM CET
> *  To: *Steven Adler
> *  Cc: *Augusto Herrmann <augusto.herrmann@gmail.com>; "
> hellmatic@gmail.com" <hellmatic@gmail.com>; DWBP Public List <
> public-dwbp-wg@w3.org>
>
> *  Subject: *Re: Data "on" the Web vs Data "in" the Web
>
>
> Hoi,
>
> I think this (semantic !) discussion around data "on" and "in" can be a
> good way to let people see the difference being putting a link to a
> resource which is a data set dump ("on") and providing some kind of API
> ("in") - whatever the technologies of the API are. Lately, I've been using
> that argument to point people to the fact that downloading dumps of data in
> various forms is like doing document sharing prior to the Web. Coming them
> to the conclusion that we should publish our data as Web sites. There is a
> bit of a focus set on SemWeb technologies for that but, really, we could
> think of many other ways to reach the same result. Here are the slides,
> comments are most welcome ;-) :
> http://www.slideshare.net/cgueret/linking-knowledge-spaces
>
> Cheers,
> Christophe
>
>
>
> On 20 March 2014 15:17, Steven Adler <adler1@us.ibm.com> wrote:
>
>> Augusto,
>>
>> I am interested in learning about HAL and look forward to this
>> discussion.  But I am a bit concerned with the way you phrase these
>> sentences:
>>
>> "There should be a way to at first publish open data resources that are
>> linked, but without rdf, such as in xml and json. Then, at a later date,
>> improve with a descriptive rdf vocabulary and expressed in rdf to become
>> linked open data (preferrably, if possible, keeping compatibility with
>> clients that implemented reading the previous non-semantic version)."
>>
>> To me this reads that non-rdf methods like xml and json are
>> accommodations to constituents who "have not yet seen the light of RDF" and
>> I want to make sure we are providing best practices standards
>> recommendations to the world that exists rather than the "perfect world" we
>> would like someday to exist.
>>
>> At IBM, we make software that runs on many operating systems.  Of course
>> we employ people with preferences for OSX, Linux, Systemz, AIX, Unix, and
>> even Windows.  Heck, many ATMS around the world still run on OS/2...
>>
>> But because our customers run all of the above we supply them with all of
>> the above solutions.
>>
>> Can we agree on an "all of the above" approach to DWBP (without
>> suggesting that everything someday becomes RDF) too?
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> Motto: "Do First, Think, Do it Again"
>>
>>
>>  From: Augusto Herrmann <augusto.herrmann@gmail.com> To: DWBP Public
>> List <public-dwbp-wg@w3.org> Date: 03/19/2014 01:16 PM Subject: Re: Data
>> "on" the Web vs Data "in" the Web
>> ------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> this is a very important point, Ig. My thoughts exactly when I suggested
>> we look at the Hypertext Application Language (HAL) proposal *[1]*<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kelly-json-hal>in the first meeting. It was in fact an invitation for us to think about
>> data "in" the web, as in "part of the web itself". We don't necessarily
>> have to follow HAL, but should look at is as a source of inspiration. The
>> way links are represented in resources in Subbu Allamaraju's RESTful
>> Webservices Cookbook *[2]*<http://books.google.com.br/books?id=LDuzpQlVuG4C>is another source of inspiration.
>>
>> We should think of standard ways to insert links to other data into many
>> common open data formats, such as xml, json and maybe even csv.. Of course
>> this linking requirement is satisfied by linked open data and rdf, but
>> sometimes organizations have some data and are willing to pubilsh, but
>> initially do not have the necessary resources (i.e. people, knowledge) to
>> develop vocabularies to describe the data. However, interlinking among
>> resources of a dataset, or even linking to resources in other datasets is
>> somewhat easier to do. There should be a way to at first publish open data
>> resources that are linked, but without rdf, such as in xml and json. Then,
>> at a later date, improve with a descriptive rdf vocabulary and expressed in
>> rdf to become linked open data (preferrably, if possible, keeping
>> compatibility with clients that implemented reading the previous
>> non-semantic version).
>>
>> Perhaps this could become a use case for the Best Practices document.
>>
>> [1] *http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kelly-json-hal*<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kelly-json-hal>
>> [2] *http://books.google.com.br/books?id=LDuzpQlVuG4C*<http://books.google.com.br/books?id=LDuzpQlVuG4C>
>>
>> All the best,
>> Augusto Herrmann
>> Open Data Team - Ministry of Planning - Brazil
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 17, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Ig Ibert Bittencourt <
>> *ig.ibert@gmail.com* <ig.ibert@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Hello DWBP,
>>
>> I was reading again about the 5 Start for Open Data and I saw this
>> affirmation below about 3 starts Web Data [1] that I think would be
>> interesting to share with this WG.
>>
>> *Excellent! The data is not only available via the Web but now everyone
>> can use the data easily. On the other hand, it's still data on the Web and
>> not **data in the Web*<http://webofdata.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/data-and-the-web-choices/>
>> *.*
>>
>>
>> With regards this affirmation, you can see more details in [2] and [3],
>> but not that much.
>>
>>
>> [1] *http://5stardata.info/* <http://5stardata.info/>
>> [2] *http://webofdata.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/data-and-the-web-choices/*<http://webofdata.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/data-and-the-web-choices/>
>> [3] *http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200211/msg01290.html*<http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/200211/msg01290.html>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Ig Ibert Bittencourt
>> Professor Adjunto III - Universidade Federal de Alagoas (UFAL)
>> Vice-Coordenador da Comissão Especial de Informática na Educação
>> Líder do Centro de Excelência em Tecnologias Sociais
>> Co-fundador da Startup MeuTutor Soluções Educacionais LTDA.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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-- 
Onderzoeker
+31(0)6 14576494
christophe.gueret@dans.knaw.nl

*Data Archiving and Networked Services (DANS)*

DANS bevordert duurzame toegang tot digitale onderzoeksgegevens. Kijk op
www.dans.knaw.nl voor meer informatie. DANS is een instituut van KNAW en
NWO.


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Den Haag | +31 70 349 44 50 | info@dans.knaw.nl <info@dans.kn> |
www.dans.knaw.nl


*Let's build a World Wide Semantic Web!*
http://worldwidesemanticweb.org/

*e-Humanities Group (KNAW)*
[image: eHumanities] <http://www.ehumanities.nl/>
Received on Monday, 24 March 2014 15:12:33 UTC

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