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Re: Subsetting data

From: Krzysztof Janowicz <janowicz@ucsb.edu>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 15:49:55 -0800
To: Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov>, Peter Baumann <p.baumann@jacobs-university.de>, Rob Atkinson <rob@metalinkage.com.au>, Dan Brickley <danbri@google.com>, Clemens Portele <portele@interactive-instruments.de>
Cc: Phil Archer <phila@w3.org>, Simon Cox <Simon.Cox@csiro.au>, ericphb@gmail.com, jeremy.tandy@metoffice.gov.uk, koubarak@di.uoa.gr, public-dwbp-comments@w3.org, public-sdw-comments@w3.org
Message-ID: <568C56A3.7050403@ucsb.edu>
+1

On 01/05/2016 02:40 PM, Annette Greiner wrote:
> I would stop at saying URIs for subsets are a Good Thing, and maybe 
> mention in the implementation section that they will naturally be 
> assigned URIs if you use a REST-based architecture. What those URIs 
> look like will depend on the implementation. (There's a difference 
> between nobody knowing how to use them and the fact that different 
> contexts call for different implementations, which I think is the case 
> here.)
> -Annette
>
> On 1/5/16 1:43 PM, Peter Baumann wrote:
>> +1
>> -Peter
>>
>> On 2016-01-05 22:18, Rob Atkinson wrote:
>>>
>>> given stable URIs for subsets (which I don think there is any 
>>> disagreement about) AFACIT there are two unresolved issues - both 
>>> concerned with the scope of the BP:
>>> 1) What is the BP for describing how subsets relate to each other 
>>> and the master data set (avoiding implementation details)
>>> 2) what is the relationship between identifiable subsets, query 
>>> endpoints and the subsets returned - do they all have identifiers, 
>>> and what is the BP for a common vocabulary to relate these different 
>>> aspects
>>>
>>> Maybe a valid result is to say that there really isnt a BP in term 
>>> of these requirements - and stop at saying URI idenfiers for subsets 
>>> is a Good Thing  Nobody Knows How To Use and throw out a challenge
>>>
>>> Rob
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 6 Jan 2016 at 05:13 Krzysztof Janowicz <janowicz@ucsb.edu 
>>> <mailto:janowicz@ucsb.edu>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Hi Dan,
>>>
>>>
>>>>     Isn't a "subset" just a query result, or which there are
>>>>     effectively an unlimited number?
>>>
>>>     I would say so.
>>>
>>>
>>>>     Storing a query so it can be re-run against evolving data has
>>>>     value. Having a URI for that, perhaps less so.
>>>
>>>     There are many cases, particularly if dealing with streams of
>>>     data, e.g., form sensors, where having URIs for subsets is very
>>>     useful, and, in fact, there are many ways to do so. Some years
>>>     ago we implemented one such solution at 52North where we
>>>     developed a transparent (i.e., invisible) proxy on top of an
>>>     endpoint that translates a URI minted in a specific way to
>>>     return specific query results.  For instance, the URI
>>>     http://my.authority.org/observations/samplingtimes/ont:time:relation:between,2008-01-10T14:00,2008-01-12T16:00/sensors/thermometer1/observedproperties/temperature
>>>     points to the observation collection with all temperature
>>>     observations from January 10th 2008 at 2pm until January 12th at
>>>     4pm made by thermometer1. Having such URIs (and proxies) is one
>>>     way of mitigating the problem that the content  referenced by
>>>     URIs should be as stable as possible which is (often) not the
>>>     case for sensor data. In our case we worked on transparently
>>>     mapping between SPARQL and OGC's Sensor Observation Services but
>>>     the idea can (and has been) used in many other settings.
>>>
>>>     Happy new year.
>>>     Krzysztof
>>>
>>>
>>>     On 12/31/2015 03:09 AM, Dan Brickley wrote:
>>>>
>>>>     Isn't a "subset" just a query result, or which there are
>>>>     effectively an unlimited number?
>>>>
>>>>     Storing a query so it can be re-run against evolving data has
>>>>     value. Having a URI for that, perhaps less so.
>>>>
>>>>     Dan
>>>>
>>>>     On Thu, 31 Dec 2015, 08:14 Clemens Portele
>>>>     <portele@interactive-instruments.de
>>>>     <mailto:portele@interactive-instruments.de>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         Rob,
>>>>
>>>>         what you describe seems to apply to the dataset (resource)
>>>>         the same way it would apply to any subset resource. I.e.
>>>>         are you discussing a more general question, not the
>>>>         subsetting question?
>>>>
>>>>         Phil,
>>>>
>>>>         a (probably often unproblematic) restriction to the
>>>>         temperature/uk/london or stations/manchester approach is
>>>>         that there is only one path, so you end up with limitations
>>>>         on the subsets. If you want to support multiple subsets,
>>>>         e.g. also stations where high speed trains stop, stations
>>>>         that have a ticket shop, etc. then there are several issues
>>>>         with a /{dataset}/{subset}/…/{subset}/{object} approach.
>>>>         These include an unclear URI scheme ("manchester" and
>>>>         "eurostar" would be on the same path level), potential name
>>>>         collisions of subset names of different subsetting
>>>>         categories, and multiple URIs for the same feature/object.
>>>>
>>>>         Best regards,
>>>>         Clemens
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>         On 31 Dec 2015, at 03:07, Rob Atkinson
>>>>>         <rob@metalinkage.com.au <mailto:rob@metalinkage.com.au>>
>>>>>         wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>         I'm not a strong set-theoretician - but it strikes me
>>>>>         there are some tensions here:
>>>>>
>>>>>         Does the identifier of a set mean that the members of that
>>>>>         set are constant, known in advance and always retrievable?
>>>>>           Is a query endpoint a resource (does either URI or URL
>>>>>         have meaning against a query that delivers real time data
>>>>>         - including the use case of "at this point in time we
>>>>>         think these things are members of this set?" )
>>>>>
>>>>>         If the subset is the result of a query - and you care that
>>>>>         it is the same subset another time you look at it - are
>>>>>         you actually assigning an identifier to the artefact -
>>>>>         which is the query response, whose properties include the
>>>>>         original query, where it was made, and the time it was made?
>>>>>
>>>>>         Can you define an ontology for terms like subset, query,
>>>>>         response that you all agree on?
>>>>>
>>>>>         I share Phil's implicit concern that subsetting by type
>>>>>         with URI patterns may not be universally applicable - IMHO
>>>>>         that equates to a "sub-register" pattern, where a set has
>>>>>         its members defined by some identifiable process (indepent
>>>>>         of any query functions available) - which may include
>>>>>         explicit subsets - for example by object type, or
>>>>>         delegated registration processes. That probably fits the
>>>>>         UK implementation better than a query-defined subset.
>>>>>
>>>>>         If subsets have some prior meaning - and a query is used
>>>>>         to access then from a service endpint - then the query is
>>>>>         a URL that needs to be bound to the object URI. AFAICT
>>>>>         thats a very different thing to saying an arbitrary query
>>>>>         result defines a subset of data.
>>>>>
>>>>>         I think you may, in general, assign an ID to the artefact
>>>>>         which is the result of a query at a given time, and if you
>>>>>         want to make that into something with more semantics then
>>>>>         you need make it into a new type of object which can be
>>>>>         described in terms of what it means. I think currently the
>>>>>         conversation is conflating these two perspectives of "subset".
>>>>>
>>>>>         Cheers, and farewell to 2015.
>>>>>         Rob Atkinson.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>         On Thu, 31 Dec 2015 at 08:26 <Simon.Cox@csiro.au> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>             Another way of looking at it is that a query, encoded
>>>>>             as a URI pattern, defines an implicit set of potential
>>>>>             URIs, each of which denotes a subset.
>>>>>
>>>>>             Simon J D Cox
>>>>>             Environmental Informatics
>>>>>             CSIRO Land and Water
>>>>>
>>>>>             E simon.cox@csiro.au <mailto:simon.cox@csiro.au> T +61
>>>>>             3 9545 2365 M +61 403 302 672
>>>>>             Physical: Central Reception, Bayview Avenue, Clayton,
>>>>>             Vic 3168
>>>>>             Deliveries: Gate 3, Normanby Road, Clayton, Vic 3168
>>>>>             Postal: Private Bag 10, Clayton South, Vic 3169
>>>>>             http://people.csiro.au/Simon-Cox
>>>>>             http://orcid.org/0000-0002-3884-3420
>>>>>             http://researchgate.net/profile/Simon_Cox3*
>>>>>             *
>>>>>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>             *From:* Phil Archer
>>>>>             *Sent:* Wednesday, 30 December 2015 6:31:16 PM
>>>>>             *To:* Manolis Koubarakis;
>>>>>             'public-sdw-comments@w3.org'; Annette Greiner; Eric
>>>>>             Stephan; Tandy, Jeremy; public-dwbp-comments@w3.org
>>>>>             *Subject:* Subsetting data
>>>>>
>>>>>             At various times in recent months I have promised to
>>>>>             look into the topic
>>>>>             of persistent identifiers for subsets of data. This
>>>>>             came up at the SDW
>>>>>             F2F in Sapporo but has also been raised by Annette in
>>>>>             DWBP. In between
>>>>>             festive activities I've been giving this some thought
>>>>>             and have tried to
>>>>>             begin to commit some ideas to a page [1].
>>>>>
>>>>>             During the CEO-LD meeting, Jeremy pointed to
>>>>>             OpenSearch as a possible
>>>>>             way forward, including its geo-temporal extensions
>>>>>             defined by the OGC.
>>>>>             There is also the Linked Data API as a means of doing
>>>>>             this, and what
>>>>>             they both have in common is that they offer an
>>>>>             intermediate layer that
>>>>>             turns a URL into a query.
>>>>>
>>>>>             How do you define a persistent identifier for a subset
>>>>>             of a dataset? IMO
>>>>>             you mint a URI and say "this identifies a subset of a
>>>>>             dataset" - and
>>>>>             then provide a means of programmatically going from
>>>>>             the URI to a query
>>>>>             that returns the subset. As long as you can replace
>>>>>             the intermediate
>>>>>             layer with another one that also returns the same
>>>>>             subset, we're done.
>>>>>
>>>>>             The UK Government Linked Data examples tend to be
>>>>>             along the lines of:
>>>>>
>>>>>             http://transport.data.gov.uk/id/stations
>>>>>             returns a list of all stations in Britain.
>>>>>
>>>>>             http://transport.data.gov.uk/id/stations/Manchester
>>>>>             returns a list of stations in Manchester
>>>>>
>>>>>             http://transport.data.gov.uk/id/stations/Manchester/Piccadilly
>>>>>             identifies Manchester Piccadilly station.
>>>>>
>>>>>             All of that data of course comes from a single dataset.
>>>>>
>>>>>             Does this work in the real worlds of meteorology and
>>>>>             UBL/PNNL?
>>>>>
>>>>>             Phil.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>             [1]
>>>>>             https://github.com/w3c/sdw/blob/gh-pages/subsetting/index.md
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>             -- 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>             Phil Archer
>>>>>             W3C Data Activity Lead
>>>>>             http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>>>
>>>>>             http://philarcher.org <http://philarcher.org/>
>>>>>             +44 (0)7887 767755
>>>>>             @philarcher1
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     -- 
>>>     Krzysztof Janowicz
>>>
>>>     Geography Department, University of California, Santa Barbara
>>>     4830 Ellison Hall, Santa Barbara, CA 93106-4060
>>>
>>>     Email:jano@geog.ucsb.edu <mailto:jano@geog.ucsb.edu>
>>>     Webpage:http://geog.ucsb.edu/~jano/ <http://geog.ucsb.edu/%7Ejano/>
>>>     Semantic Web Journal:http://www.semantic-web-journal.net
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Dr. Peter Baumann
>>   - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
>>     www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann
>>     mail:p.baumann@jacobs-university.de
>>     tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
>>   - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
>>     www.rasdaman.com, mail:baumann@rasdaman.com
>>     tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882
>> "Si forte in alienas manus oberraverit hec peregrina epistola incertis ventis dimissa, sed Deo commendata, precamur ut ei reddatur cui soli destinata, nec preripiat quisquam non sibi parata." (mail disclaimer, AD 1083)
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> Annette Greiner
> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>


-- 
Krzysztof Janowicz

Geography Department, University of California, Santa Barbara
4830 Ellison Hall, Santa Barbara, CA 93106-4060

Email: jano@geog.ucsb.edu
Webpage: http://geog.ucsb.edu/~jano/
Semantic Web Journal: http://www.semantic-web-journal.net
Received on Tuesday, 5 January 2016 23:50:30 UTC

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