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Re: Subsetting data

From: Peter Baumann <p.baumann@jacobs-university.de>
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 11:35:59 +0100
To: Jon Blower <j.d.blower@reading.ac.uk>
CC: Frans Knibbe <frans.knibbe@geodan.nl>, Phil Archer <phila@w3.org>, Manolis Koubarakis <koubarak@di.uoa.gr>, "public-sdw-comments@w3.org" <public-sdw-comments@w3.org>, Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov>, Eric Stephan <ericphb@gmail.com>, "Tandy, Jeremy" <jeremy.tandy@metoffice.gov.uk>, "public-dwbp-comments@w3.org" <public-dwbp-comments@w3.org>
Message-ID: <568B9C8F.2020404@jacobs-university.de>
Hi Jon,

On 2016-01-04 17:57, Jon Blower wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Interesting discussion - but I think Peter and Frans are talking at cross
> purposes here. I think Frans meant “data partitioning” in the most general
> sense of splitting up a dataset into subsets. I think Peter has taken this
> term to mean the low-level of partitioning of data on a filesystem or in a
> database. (Apologies if I’ve misunderstood either of you!)

hm, can we have several ways of subsetting simultaneously? Let us take the
example of a satellite image map, for simplicity. We might clarify whether we
1 - want to put pixels into different places (RAM vs disk = caching, different
places on disk = tiling, different nodes = distribution, etc.)
2 - want to impose a _logical_ structure on a physically contiguous object. This
means: sets of links containing subsetting directives - our discussion about
"subsetting URIs". A partOf is fine for this, as you describe with MELODIES.

While (1) and (2) can technically be combined it complicates discussion even
more if we start mixing both.

>
> For what it’s worth, I agree with Frans’ view of starting with a very simple
> approach to subsetting. The first problem to solve is simply how to record
> that Subset A is a part of Dataset X (and vice versa), assuming that both can
> be identified (with URIs). In MELODIES we’ve been using dct:isPartOf and
> dct:hasPart for this, but we’re just experimenting. Both the subset and the
> parent dataset can be typed as Datasets.
>
> I think search engines would want to know about this kind of partitioning. It
> would help them to group subsets underneath parent datasets and avoid the
> problem of search results being dominated by lots of “fragments” (which
> happens in some cases, e.g. some of the resources in the GEOSS).
>
> Query languages/interfaces are interesting, but I think they are a separate
> kind of discussion. Just having a BP for expressing whole-part relationships
> would be a step forward. A query is one way to arrive at a part, but there are
> lots of rabbit-holes and details we don’t need to get into for a “first cut”,
> in my opinion.

This whole discussion remains vague and doesn't touch grounds. It started with
(2) and now involves (1) as well while not having concluded on (2). I fully
agree with your view, and tried to motivate this. I am looking forward to the
group establishing what subsetting should mean, as a basis. Is it partOf?

-Peter

>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>
>
>> On 4 Jan 2016, at 16:36, Peter Baumann <p.baumann@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>>
>> Frans-
>>
>> On 2016-01-04 13:48, Frans Knibbe wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2016-01-04 13:20 GMT+01:00 Peter Baumann <p.baumann@jacobs-university.de
>>> <mailto:p.baumann@jacobs-university.de>>:
>>>
>>>     Hi Frans,
>>>
>>>     data partitioning is an implementation detail which serves to quicker
>>>     determine the subset.
>>>
>>>
>>> But that does not need to be the only reason for  dataset partitioning. I
>>> can think of some others:
>>>
>>>  1. It could allow complete automatic retrieval of a complete dataset
>>>     without the need for a data dump (in a specific format) and without the
>>>     need for a specialized API. That could be very important for building
>>>     remote indexes (e.g. by a search engine);
>>>
>>
>> IMHO a search engine will not want to download full datasets - and if so, it
>> will not be interested in how such a large dataset is split internally.
>> Compare to an HTML file, who would want to know about the file system blocks
>> it is split into?
>>
>>>  1. It allows automatic representation of the data in a human friendly way
>>>     (small enough HTML pages with annotation and navigation);
>>>
>>
>> while there might be special cases where you have a textual representation
>> this is not the case with most data, such as sets of vectors or pixels. An
>> image is best represented for a human as a visual pixel matrix, and
>> delivering this again is independent from the storage organisation on a server.
>>
>>>  1. It allows caching of meaningful and self-describing chunks of data.
>>>
>>
>> not sure what self-describing means in this context, but caching is
>> independent from that. Again, looking at your HTML file do we want to know
>> which of its file system blocks is in cache?
>>
>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>     As such, any subsetting or querying interface should remain agnostic of
>>>     it, otherwise it runs the risk of supporting a particular implementation
>>>     (and there are quite a few specialized implementations out there).
>>>
>>>
>>> I think the concept of dataset partitioning could be handled in a very
>>> general way. Perhaps the only required elements are:
>>>
>>>  1. express that something (a web resource) is a dataset (and could
>>>     therefore be a subset or a superset);
>>>  2. express that a dataset is a superset or subset of another dataset. 
>>>
>>> This could work with any type of data and with any query interface, I think.
>>
>> well, we don't know - I have raised the question a couple of times, but it
>> does not find much sympathy: what type of data are we talking about, and what
>> does subsetting mean for each of them?
>>
>> -Peter
>>
>>>
>>> Re

-- 
Dr. Peter Baumann
 - Professor of Computer Science, Jacobs University Bremen
   www.faculty.jacobs-university.de/pbaumann
   mail: p.baumann@jacobs-university.de
   tel: +49-421-200-3178, fax: +49-421-200-493178
 - Executive Director, rasdaman GmbH Bremen (HRB 26793)
   www.rasdaman.com, mail: baumann@rasdaman.com
   tel: 0800-rasdaman, fax: 0800-rasdafax, mobile: +49-173-5837882
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Received on Tuesday, 5 January 2016 10:36:37 UTC

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