Re: doc-pullquote

Matt, 

My opinion: Providing author guidance would be better. If you already have a superclass of none then it should not be mapped. It is clear it provides not semantic value. 

Rich


Rich Schwerdtfeger




> On Nov 1, 2016, at 8:15 PM, Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Sorry for the delay, but competing priorities are spreading me thin. We have a superclass role of "none" already. Should we just remove the default aria-hidden statement and provide guidance to authors who duplicate the pullquote to hide the repeated instance to wrap this up? (e.g., add an example with @aria-hidden and see if there are appropriate places to highlight in epub documentation?)
>  
> I get the feeling we will cause authoring problems by assuming a certain kind of pullquote markup, even if it's the common case today.
>  
> Matt
>  
> From: jcraig@apple.com [mailto:jcraig@apple.com] 
> Sent: October 27, 2016 10:34 PM
> To: DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org) <public-dpub-aria@w3.org>
> Cc: Tzviya Siegman <tsiegman@wiley.com>; Alexander Surkov <asurkov@mozilla.com>; Bogdan Brinza <bbrinza@microsoft.com>; Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>; Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com>; Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>
> Subject: Re: doc-pullquote
>  
> I almost feel like this should be a CSS layout feature… like a pseudo-element that duplicates its render parent's content. A way to render the same content both in context, and out of context, but without duplicating it in the DOM. Something like:
>  
> ·       <blockquote cite="http://www.englishcentral.com/videodetails/22846 <http://www.englishcentral.com/videodetails/22846>">
> ·       We design our products so they surprise and delight everyone who uses them. 
> ·        
> ·       And we never, never ever analyze the return on investment. 
> ·        
> ·       We do it because it is just and right.
> ·        
> ·       And <span class="pullquote">that is what respect for human dignity requires</span>... 
> ·        
> ·       ...and it is a part of Apple that I am especially proud of.</blockqoute>
>  
> .pullquote::duplicate {
>     content: parent-contents;
>     float: left;
>     font-size: 300%;
>     display: block;
>     padding: 1em 2em;
>     width: 20em;
> }
>  
>  
>  
>> On Oct 27, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com <mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com>> wrote:
>>  
>> If that is the case, then why not map them to role="none" unless they are made focusable and then you map them to the native host language semantics. A role of none will not hide the content within the container having doc-pullquote unless they are structural elements associated with the
>>  
>> Or, do you really want to hide the element and all the content of a pull quote? Note: if you do this then you have to deal with an author putting tabindex on it and child content.  
>> 
>> 
>> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>>  
>>  
>>> ----- Original message -----
>>> From: "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>
>>> To: "jcraig@apple.com <mailto:jcraig@apple.com>" <jcraig@apple.com <mailto:jcraig@apple.com>>, Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com <mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>>
>>> Cc: Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com <mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>>, Alexander Surkov <asurkov@mozilla.com <mailto:asurkov@mozilla.com>>, Bogdan Brinza <bbrinza@microsoft.com <mailto:bbrinza@microsoft.com>>, "DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>)" <public-dpub-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>>
>>> Subject: RE: doc-pullquote
>>> Date: Thu, Oct 27, 2016 12:18 PM
>>>   
>>> The reason we have suggested that pullquotes be hidden in some way is that they duplicate content.
>>> 
>>> James, based on discussions with users of AT, we concluded that most will find pullquotes irritating and/or confusing because they duplicate existing content. So, they might provide emphasis, but we'd like the default for AT to be not displayed. How can we make that work?  
>>> 
>>> Tzviya Siegman
>>> Information Standards Lead
>>> Wiley
>>> 201-748-6884
>>> tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: jcraig@apple.com <mailto:jcraig@apple.com> [mailto:jcraig@apple.com <mailto:jcraig@apple.com>]
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 12:57 PM
>>> To: Joanmarie Diggs
>>> Cc: Rich Schwerdtfeger; Alexander Surkov; Bogdan Brinza; Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken; DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>)
>>> Subject: Re: doc-pullquote
>>> 
>>> Sometimes they aren't purely decorative. At a minimum, they provide emphasis. Arguably, they could be navigable, too. Similar to headings or images, but probably not recommended to subclass landmarks.
>>> 
>>> > On Oct 27, 2016, at 9:17 AM, Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com <mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > But my understanding is that pullquotes are purely decorative and ATs
>>> > shouldn't double present them. Native host language semantics won't
>>> > necessarily buy us that, right?
>>> >
>>> > --joanie
>>> >
>>> > On 10/27/2016 12:05 PM, Rich Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>>> >> Not mapped only means that the element is not mapped. Hidden should
>>> >> apply to the element and its subtree unless a descendant is
>>> >> overridden by the element. So, I think a better solution would be to
>>> >> not to expose the role at all and allow it to default to the native
>>> >> host language semantics. In this case it does not matter whether it has focus or not.
>>> >>
>>> >> In fact, I think it would be best to state that in the mapping spec.
>>> >> that defines what it means to not be mapped. We should say that it
>>> >> defaults to the native host language semantics and the ARIA role is
>>> >> not exposed.
>>> >>
>>> >> Would this not be a better approach?
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> On Oct 27, 2016, at 9:24 AM, Alexander Surkov <asurkov@mozilla.com
>>>  <mailto:asurkov@mozilla.com%0b>>>> <mailto:asurkov@mozilla.com <mailto:asurkov@mozilla.com>>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Thinking more, aria-hidden='true' might be not that bad, even with
>>> >>> its ambiguity of the usage and implementations in the browsers. If
>>> >>> you say 'not mapped', then I think you should say if this is applied
>>> >>> to elements from its subtree, also you may need to clarify the edge
>>> >>> cases, for example, what happens, if the focus goes into 'pullquote'
>>> >>> element.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Having said I would probably prefer if that was the author's
>>> >>> responsibility to hide the element from AT, either by moving it
>>> >>> offscreen or putting aria-hidden='true' on it.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Also I don't quire understand why would we need to have 'pullquote'
>>> >>> role in the first place. If pullquote doesn't have semantics, then
>>> >>> it doesn't seem worthwhile to have ARIA role for it.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Thanks.
>>> >>> Alexander.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 9:34 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger
>>> >>> <richschwer@gmail.com <mailto:richschwer@gmail.com <mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>> >>>> Based on this discussion:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dpub-aria/2016Oct/0029 <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dpub-aria/2016Oct/0029>.
>>> >>>> html
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I want to change the dpub-aam mapping to not mapped for all
>>> >>>> platforms. That includes (not xml-roles values for linux and
>>> >>>> Windows IA2 mappings).
>>> >>>> It means
>>> >>>> that the Mac mapping would go form group to not mapped.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Any disagreement?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Regards,
>>> >>>> Rich
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>
>>> >