Re: [dpub-aria] @rel (was 20160114 meeting cancelled)

Thanks Rich, I understand what you mean.

Ivan

> On 15 Jan 2016, at 17:23, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> 
> We were discussing a possible role description for link roles. ARIA 1.1 has a role description: aria-roledescription
> We were also discussion possible new aria attributes for the type of link.
> 
> The problem is that @rel can have a link that points to all sorts of things as you know. ... Dublic core meta data, and so on, which constitute other semantic taxonomies. The semantics mapping issues grow exponentially.
> 
> So, if we expose @rel to platform accessibility APIs it becomes quite complicated as to how to do it correctly. Values such as "prefetch" have no value to an AT. The combination is a catch all for semantics (hence the cesspool).
> 
> So, AT vendors need to adapt their products for these new accessibility semantics. Many of them have limited budgets and they expect people to pay for the development. Who is going to do that?
> 
> Rich
> 
> 
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
> 
> <graycol.gif>Ivan Herman ---01/15/2016 07:41:26 AM---Tzviya, Rich, I must admit I did not follow the details of the discussions for a while. *If* using @
> 
> From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
> To: Tzviya Siegman <tsiegman@wiley.com>
> Cc: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS, W3C PF - DPUB Joint Task Force <public-dpub-aria@w3.org>
> Date: 01/15/2016 07:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [dpub-aria] @rel (was 20160114 meeting cancelled)
> 
> 
> 
> Tzviya, Rich,
> 
> I must admit I did not follow the details of the discussions for a while. *If* using @rel is not the solution, what are the current, available approaches instead? Is there some sort of a clear list of alternatives that are still on the table? (I know there were discussions around this already prior to TPAC.)
> 
> My apologies if that was already clearly stated and I just missed it.
> 
> Minor comments below
> 
> On 15 Jan 2016, at 14:26, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>> wrote:
> 
> Hi Rich,
> 
> I just changed the subject line so that people will see this.
> 
> Rich has raised some concerns with @rel (in lieu of *ref). Let’s try to discuss via email because time is of the essence:
> 
> Quoting Rich’s message:
> Keep in mind this will require:
> 
> New Accessibility API mappings for @rel in HTML 5 that do not exist today. Currently @rel is not mapped.
> 
> Understood. But we already have to define mappings for a range of @role values for DPUB anyway, right?
> Adding @rel to SVG
> 
> You mean adding @rel to the SVG spec? That is probably the biggest obstacle indeed. Actually, SVG uses the Simple Link of XLInk and xlink:arcrole is probably available already, but that is only in theory; I do not think any SVG tool would ever use it and they may fail on them. And it is of course then an alias to @ref from an ARIA point of view, which is never a good thing...
> Dealing with the problem that @rel references a my words (a cesspool) of meta data semantics that any mapping to platform accessibility APIs would need to sift through.
> 
> I am not sure I understand what you mean. Where is this different from the mapping that you already refer to?
> Figuring out how to fund AT Vendors to support the new accessibility api mappings across platform.
> 
> Don't we have the same problem with the DPUB ARIA module already? I am also not sure what it means, for W3C, to 'fund' AT Vendors…
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Ivan
> 
> I understand that these are concerns from an accessibility standpoint, but we are not suggesting adding @rel to ARIA but making use of a valid HTML attribute. If AT doesn’t recognize @rel, isn’t that already a problem. The questions we had hoped to discuss next week are the ones associated with the semantics, and whether the semantics generated by @rel will cause problems. It is quite troubling that @rel, which should be quite robust seems to have been restricted to fewer than 5 values.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tzviya
> 
> 
> Tzviya Siegman
> Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
> Wiley
> 201-748-6884
> tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>
> 
> From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com <mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com>]
> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 2:48 PM
> To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken
> Cc: DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>)
> Subject: RE: [dpub-aria] 20160114 meeting cancelled
> 
> We can discuss this next week but when I heard that you were considering @rel again it appeared that the group might have forgotten the issues. Consequently, I sent them out to the group so you have them.
> 
> We can certainly discuss these on the list.
> 
> Rich
> 
> 
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
> 
> <image001.gif>"Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" ---01/14/2016 08:15:04 AM---Hi Rich, We want to discuss the pros/cons. As explained last week, Markus, Matt, and I are meeting d
> 
> From: "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>
> To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
> Cc: "DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>)" <public-dpub-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>>
> Date: 01/14/2016 08:15 AM
> Subject: RE: [dpub-aria] 20160114 meeting cancelled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Rich,
> 
> We want to discuss the pros/cons. As explained last week, Markus, Matt, and I are meeting deadlines for EPUB now. Janina had planned to discuss this next week at APA. If we need to discuss sooner, can we do it over email?
> 
> Thanks,
> Tzviya
> 
> Tzviya Siegman
> Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
> Wiley
> 201-748-6884
> tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>
> 
> From: Richard Schwerdtfeger [mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com <mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com>]
> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 9:09 AM
> To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken
> Cc: DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>)
> Subject: Re: [dpub-aria] 20160114 meeting cancelled
> 
> That is unfortunate. I understand that the DPUB people want to go back to @rel for the special links currently specified in dpub-aria.
> 
> Keep in mind this will require:
> 
> New Accessibility API mappings for @rel in HTML 5 that do not exist today. Currently @rel is not mapped.
> Adding @rel to SVG
> Dealing with the problem that @rel references a my words (a cesspool) of meta data semantics that any mapping to platform accessibility APIs would need to sift through.
> Figuring out how to fund AT Vendors to support the new accessibility api mappings across platform.
> 
> I currently don't support this approach but I am not going to fight it either. I agree that it does not make sense to create multiple roles for each type of link. This is reflected in the current specifications.
> 
> Rich
> 
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
> 
> <image001.gif>"Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" ---01/13/2016 08:58:50 AM---The 2016-01-14 DPUB-ARIA meeting is cancelled We'll pick up again shortly.
> 
> From: "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>
> To: "DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>)" <public-dpub-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>>
> Date: 01/13/2016 08:58 AM
> Subject: [dpub-aria] 20160114 meeting cancelled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The 2016-01-14 DPUB-ARIA meeting is cancelled
> 
> We’ll pick up again shortly.
> 
> 
> Tzviya Siegman
> Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
> Wiley
> 201-748-6884
> tsiegman@wiley.com <mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>
> 
> 
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C
> Digital Publishing Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ <http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/>
> mobile: +31-641044153
> ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704 <http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704>
> 
> 
> 
> [attachment "signature.asc" deleted by Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM]
> 


----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704