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Re: [dpub] agenda 20161003

From: Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>
Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2016 17:17:51 +0200
Message-ID: <CABqxo82srm7LK7V-_m=ycVn=V+_07a8FeJbCS2z+bBg7=A=WYQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>
Cc: Alan Stearns <stearns@adobe.com>, "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com>, "public-digipub-ig@w3.org" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Ok, this might be viewed as a rant. But since I've been apparently too
subtle about this in the past:

> we do that_ because the value of the MathML in the workflow is
unquestionable

I think this is the key error in this argument. In my experience, the value
of MathML for the web has been extremely exaggerated, in particular for
visual but more importantly for other use cases, especially accessibility.

Personally, I think MathML is a fundamentally flawed standard when it comes
to the web. It might be fine for xml document workflows but for the web
it's ultimately a bad technology from a lost age called the 90s.

It need not be used and should not be used today.

Regards,
Peter.

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:59 PM, Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>
wrote:

> I still think we're missing the point of the initial request. And maybe
> the ensuing discussion reveals that MQ (despite its apparent appealing
> simplicity as the _*interim*_ solution we are looking for) is not going
> to work and we need to come up with another tack that _*will work right
> now*_, not a year or two years or a decade from now.
>
>
>
> Here's what we need.
>
>
>
> --*Publisher has MathML. *
>
> To recap what I've said a gazillion times, STM publishers generate
> literally millions of equations as MathML. I wouldn't be surprised if the
> organization I work for _*itself*_ produces millions of equations as
> MathML _*every year*_. Yes, we have to do some tweaks sometimes to work
> around things that go wrong, but _*we do that*_ because the value of the
> MathML in the workflow is unquestionable. We could not do what we do
> without it.
>
>
>
> *--Publisher creates image of equation from MathML.*
>
> I am a huge fan of MathJax, and I am thrilled at the developments over the
> past year, wrt both server-side functionality and accessibility
> enhancement. Kudos to Peter and co. SVG or HTML+CSS or .jpg, the publisher
> has controlled "this is what the equation must look like." Visually.
>
>
>
> *--Publisher puts BOTH the MathML and the image in an EPUB.*
>
> Publishers are NOT doing this now because they can't trust that the image
> will be used when the MathML support is insufficient; they just want to
> provide the image to be safe. They don't put the MathML in the EPUB because
> then some reading systems try to use it and mess it up or don't even
> realize they should use the image.
>
>
>
> *--Publisher has a way to say "use the image for visual rendering and make
> the MathML available to AT."*
>
> This is what we need RIGHT NOW while the industry struggles to come up
> with a real solution, which may or may not ultimately involve rendering
> MathML reliably (though of course remember those millions of equations
> rendered from MathML that STM publishers find quite acceptable).
>
>
>
> *--Reading systems actually do that.*
>
>
>
> We are not looking for an assertion that a reading system will render the
> MathML perfectly. That may be the reason the appealing MQ assertion won't
> fly.
>
>
>
> What we need is an interim solution that will make it safe for publishers
> to deliver the MathML along with the image that they want displayed
> visually. For now.
>
>
>
> Bill Kasdorf
>
> VP and Principal Consultant | *Apex CoVantage*
>
> p:
>
> 734-904-6252  m:   734-904-6252
>
> ISNI: http://isni.org/isni/0000000116490786
>
> ORCiD: https://orcid.org/0000-0001-7002-4786
> <https://orcid.org/0000-0001-7002-4786?lang=en>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Alan Stearns [mailto:stearns@adobe.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 05, 2016 10:25 AM
> *To:* Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken; Peter Krautzberger;
> public-digipub-ig@w3.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: [dpub] agenda 20161003
>
>
>
> Tzviya,
>
>
>
> I thought exactly the same thing when I read it, but Peter had beat me to
> it. There’s already a long thread discussing this on www-style.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Alan
>
>
>
> *From: *"Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, October 5, 2016 at 5:24 AM
> *To: *Peter Krautzberger <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>, "
> public-digipub-ig@w3.org" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
> *Cc: *W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
> *Subject: *RE: [dpub] agenda 20161003
> *Resent-From: *<public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
> *Resent-Date: *Wednesday, October 5, 2016 at 5:25 AM
>
>
>
> Thanks, Peter. I think it would be helpful to pass this on to the CSS WG.
>
>
>
> *Tzviya Siegman*
>
> Information Standards Lead
>
> Wiley
>
> 201-748-6884
>
> tsiegman@wiley.com
>
>
>
> *From:* Peter Krautzberger [mailto:peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org
> <peter.krautzberger@mathjax.org>]
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 02, 2016 10:37 AM
> *To:* public-digipub-ig@w3.org
> *Cc:* W3C Digital Publishing IG
> *Subject:* Re: [dpub] agenda 20161003
>
>
>
> Regrets from me. It's a public holiday where I live.
>
> But I wrote up my thoughts on the media query at
> https://www.peterkrautzberger.org/0190/
>
> As I said in the breakout meeting, this is my personal opinion and what I
> would tell my clients.
>
> Best,
> Peter.
>
>
>
> On Sep 30, 2016 3:50 PM, "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi DPUB,
>
>
>
> Below is the draft agenda for next week's IG concall, to be held at the
> usual time and day [0].
>
>
>
> Please let us know if you are able to scribe. Please join the call via
> WebEx [1] and join IRC [13] for live chat & minutes (IRC channel #dpub).
>
>
>
> Webex: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/WebEx
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_dpub_IG_wiki_WebEx&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=HDWX517A02R9inge-INWWnkv3kZpEQ_xnLCWv-ZBkN8&e=>
> (note: you will need a password. Refer to earlier message for pwd or log in
> to IRC to obtain)
>
>
>
>
>
> *Agenda:*
>
> ** Approve minutes [2] [3] [4]*
>
> ** New Meeting time: beginning next week,  10 Oct, Monday. 16:00 UTC/12:00
> EDT/18:00 CET*
>
> ** Post-TPAC Action items: See list below*
>
> ** Remember to fill out post-TPAC Survey [5]*
>
>
>
>
>
> *Post TPAC Action items:*
>
> ·          WCAG: (@Avneesh/Charles)
>
> o   provide techniques etc from EPUB to AWK and JO by Dec,
>
> o   see https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2ict/ (already reviewed).
>
> o   schedule joint call (chairs can coordinate scheduling)
>
> o   See https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Success_Criteria for info
> about writing new success criteria and https://github.com/w3c/
> wcag21/issues/1 for SC template.
>
> ·         CSS
>
> o   Provide Dean Jackson with information about why publishers need tables
>
> o   Clarify with Peter K what status of Math MQ is and next steps
>
> o   @dave – look into InDesign hanging punctuation
>
> o   @david_wood: table samples to Dean Jackson
>
> o   @liam – XSL-FO => CSS-FO
>
> ·         (P)WP:
>
> o   https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/track/actions/64 @Tzviya assign Heather’s
> issues to individuals
>
> o   @Leonard dedupe PWP-UCR
>
> o   @Heather reorg PWP-UCR
>
> o   @brady action 65: split PWP into review chunks
>
> o   Many have been assigned github issues. Please check to see if you’ve
> been assigned an issue. Pay attention to the issues.
>
> o   Future: look into Object Model for WP
>
> ·         POE:
>
> o   Tzviya/BillK to reach out to Journals Publishers re: POE, ODRL mapping
>
>
>
>
>
> [0] http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=
> DPUB+IG+Meeting&iso=20161003T11&p1=43
>
>
>
> [1] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/WebEx
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_dpub_IG_wiki_WebEx&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=AWVyHkab-8YSKIFvg5cX199RKBKASxchJoT8vOl6Eds&e=>
>
>
>
> [2] https://www.w3.org/2016/09/12-dpub-minutes.html
>
>
>
> [3] https://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-dpub-minutes.html
>
>
>
> [4] https://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-dpub-minutes.html
>
>
>
> [5] https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/tpac2016-feedback/
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> To join this telecon, use the following logistics:
>
>
>
> Webex [10]
>
>
>
> Join chat and minutes on Zakim
>
>
>
> We will also use an IRC channel to minute the discussions:
>
> Address:  irc.w3.org
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__irc.w3.org&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=h-5bD2a_nAKp3H7yBTuZon_BjouN6r1WvAuXcVc2hd4&e=>
>
> Available ports (choose one): 6667, 6665, 21 IRC channel: #dpub See how to
> connect [11] using an IRC client [12] or our web interface [13] User
> Instructions for Zakim [14] To mute your line press 61#. Unmute is 60#.
>
>
>
> To place yourself on the speaker queue ('q+' in irc) press 41# (Handup).
>
>
>
> Unqueue ('q-' in irc) is 40#.
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
>
> Digital Publishing Interest Group home page http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_dpub_IG_&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=qizMA2uF3w05lFnio42yhvYTbP3KdqfhoGKdarm9vp8&e=>
> Digital Publishing Interest Group Wiki
>
>
>
> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Main_Page
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_dpub_IG_wiki_Main-5FPage&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=YIM72-SWeepRM7ccMwTLXXb_ommtJZ_7dywgTAhwh2w&e=>
>
>
>
> * Digital Publishing Interest Group Charter http://www.w3.org/2013/02/
> digpubig.html
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_2013_02_digpubig.html&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=MspFOYljKyd3OvLK4HQ0tSDoyy7deeDPXBsY2eTZ4Bg&e=>
>
> * IG Task forces http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_dpub_IG_wiki_Task-5FForces&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=2hMdfz9wvT2yt-LRpjGD2JOlLRGRsrbz94MEIcJDAiE&e=>
>
>
>
> [10] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/WebEx
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_dpub_IG_wiki_WebEx&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=AWVyHkab-8YSKIFvg5cX199RKBKASxchJoT8vOl6Eds&e=>
>
>
>
> [11] http://www.w3.org/Project/IRC/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_Project_IRC_&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=nSqDkNODuFfTEvgyvxepXvGUWc5gfHHusclLX-pifqw&e=>
>
>
>
> [13] http://www.w3.org/Project/IRC/#Client
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_Project_IRC_-23Client&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=dMrCmw2z6nfp4OehFQaPzST9jcnnQr0vCJKszDMz3yk&e=>
>
>
>
> [13] http://irc.w3.org/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__irc.w3.org_&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=TZckj2m7jaTSnt-0_YfNwbvT9Wr_8945IKVYL7vyACo&e=>
>
>
>
> [14] http://www.w3.org/2002/01/UsingZakim
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.w3.org_2002_01_UsingZakim&d=CwMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=zjI0r-H6xRs5fYf2_jJkju6US9ijk0nLw4ns2nuwU2k&m=rIuqucla5dlbf2RphNNvB8RvCVimlUMYalDkG5lRDlw&s=evvsspcHumsRw4CWlOs5pGNisePyMksCrMEmpBaJ0ag&e=>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *Tzviya Siegman*
>
> Information Standards Lead
>
> Wiley
>
> 201-748-6884
>
> tsiegman@wiley.com
>
>
>
>
Received on Wednesday, 5 October 2016 15:18:23 UTC

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