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RE: The HTML q element can sometimes be useful. Discuss.

From: Rebeca Ruiz Sánchez <rebeca@cornac.es>
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 09:20:03 +0200
Message-ID: <CAPetEF5Kp6ibyQMWjB3SMgLXe3vHCauA37B2k3gqbmpudJhDRA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Tex Texin <textexin@xencraft.com>
Cc: Florian Rivoal <florian@rivoal.net>, Nick Barreto <nick@canelo.co>, public-digipub-ig@w3.org, Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>, www International <www-international@w3.org>
El 28/4/2016 12:50 a. m., "Tex Texin" <textexin@xencraft.com> escribió:
>
> Thanks Rebeca those are great examples.
>
> I am curious, in the La Regenta example, the second paragraph starts with
an ending quote. I take it, that in Spanish that is considered an indicator
that a quote is in progress and that is what you meant by a “follow-up
quote”. Is that correct? I didn’t know about this and a quick search (in
English) didn’t give an explanation.
>
> tex
>
Hello, Tex. You are correct. That's a follow-up quote. But that's an
atypical follow-up quote because the usual character for starting a new
paragraph inside a quote is the ending latin quote: »

Here you are an example from Spanish author Juan Valera, who translated
"Daphnis and Chloe" in the XIX century:

No tardó éste en conocer también las obras de Amor. Entre él y Dorcón
sobrevino contienda acerca de la hermosura. Cloe había de sentenciar.
Premio del vencedor, un beso de Cloe. Dorcón habló primero de esta manera:

«Yo, zagala, soy más alto que Dafnis, y valgo más de boyero que él de
cabrero, porque los bueyes valen más que las cabras. Soy blanco como la
leche y rubio como la mies cuando la siegan. No me crió una bestia, sino mi
madre. Este es chiquitín, lampiño como las mujeres y negro como un lobezno.
Vive entre chotos, y su olor ha de ser atroz, y es tan pobre, que no tiene
para mantener un perro.

»Se cuenta que una cabra le dio leche, y a la verdad que parece cabrito.»

Así dijo Dorcón. Luego contestó Dafnis: «Me crió una cabra como a Júpiter,
y son mejores que tus vacas las cabras que yo apaciento. Y no huelo como
ellas, como no huele Pan, que casi es macho cabrío. Bastan para mi sustento
queso, blanco vino y pan bazo, manjares campesinos, no de gente rica. Soy
lampiño como Baco, y como los jacintos moreno; pero más vale Baco que los
sátiros, y más el jacinto que la azucena. Este es bermejo como los zorros,
barbudo como los chivos, y como las cortesanas blanco. Y mira bien a quién
besas, pues a mí me besarás la boca, y a él, las cerdas que se la cubren.
Recuerda, por último, ¡oh, zagala, que a ti también te crió una oveja, y
eres, no obstante, linda.»


http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/obra-visor/dafnis-y-cloe--0/html/feffe876-82b1-11df-acc7-002185ce6064_1.html#I_4_
Follow-up quotes were very common until XX century. In the past decades,
many authors decided to style extense quotations with indentation, in a
very similar way to the default styling of <blockquote> in the web. But a
lot of modern authors still use traditional follow-up quotes.

It's very hard to gather toghether all the use cases in quotations. There
are books in Spanish that cover this question, like Martínez de Sousa's
works "Ortografía y ortotipografía del español actual" and "Manual de
estilo de la lengua española".

I didn't know about James Joyce's quotation styles. I'm pretty sure that
English quotations are in very different fashions too. In the last decades
the Western languages have lost typographical diversity because the
audiences are more global, so it is more comfortable to rely in a small set
of typographical styles that will be understood by everybody.

Are we ready to recover typographical diversity? That's hard. Can it be
made only with <q> element? In Spanish there's a dramatic distinction
between remembered dialogues (with quotes in different fashions) and actual
dialogues (always with em dashes). The first are quotations; the second are
simply dialogues. We may need to create another element apart from <q> and
<blockquote>.

This is my second day in the W3C. If by proposing this I am obfuscating the
topic please tell me.

Regards,

Rebeca.



>
>
> From: Rebeca Ruiz Sánchez [mailto:rebeca@cornac.es]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 2:48 PM
> To: Tex Texin
> Cc: public-digipub-ig@w3.org; Florian Rivoal; Nick Barreto; Richard
Ishida; www International
> Subject: RE: The HTML q element can sometimes be useful. Discuss.
>
>
>
>
> El 27/4/2016 8:10 p. m., "Tex Texin" <textexin@xencraft.com> escribió:
> >
> > That and the lack of default quote marks surrounding blockquote.
> >
> >
>
> Have a look to Spanish classic novel "La Regenta". Interior monologue.
>
> «“¡Oh, a él, a don Álvaro Mesía le pasaba aquello! ¿Y el ridículo? ¡Qué
diría Visita, [...] qué diría el mundo entero!
>
> ”Dirían que un cura le había derrotado. ¡Aquello pedía sangre! Sí, pero
esta era otra”. Si don Álvaro se figuraba al Magistral vestido de levita,
acudiendo a un duelo a que él le retaba... sentía escalofríos»
>
> (Clarín Regenta [Esp. 1884-85]).
>
> You can see " follow-up quotes" in this block quote.
>
> And now let's read a dialogue from " The catcher in the rye":
>
> —Dígame, Howitz —le dije—. ¿Pasa usted muchas veces junto al lago del
Central Park?
> —¿Qué?
> —El lago, sabe. Ese lago pequeño que hay cerca de Central South Park.
Donde están los patos. ¿Sabe, no?
> —Sí. ¿Qué pasa con ese lago?
>
> "Hey, listen," I said. "You know those ducks in that lagoon right near
Central Park South? That little lake? By any chance, do you happen to know
where they go, the ducks, when it gets all frozen over? Do you happen to
know, by any chance?" I realized it was only one chance in a million.
>
> He turned around and looked at me like I was a madman. "What're ya tryna
do, bud?" he said. "Kid me?"
>
> Regardless of the typographical sign used, the <q> element may be good
for interior monologues but not for dialogues. The <q> element tends to be
used in English dialogues because they are rendered usually with quotes. In
Spanish the distinction between dialogue and quote is very dramatic because
dialogues are typically rendered with em dashes.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rebeca Ruiz.
>
> >
> > From: Florian Rivoal [mailto:florian@rivoal.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2016 8:33 AM
> > To: Nick Barreto
> > Cc: Richard Ishida; W3C Digital Publishing IG; www International
> > Subject: Re: The HTML q element can sometimes be useful. Discuss.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> On Apr 27, 2016, at 16:14, Nick Barreto <nick@canelo.co> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Unlike sentence ending periods, quotation marks do change based on
the styling of the document (more so for blockquote than for q, but still).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> How semantically different are <q> and <blockquote>, apart from <q>
clearly being inline? Or have I just described the entire difference?
> >
> >
> >
> > As far as I understand, that's the difference. Besides the
display:block vs display:inline, this also implies that typically, <q> is
in the middle of a sentence while <blockquote> is not, but I believe that's
it.
> >
> >
> >
> >  - Florian


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Received on Thursday, 28 April 2016 07:20:38 UTC

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