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RE: Expected behaviour of quotation marks

From: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <tsiegman@wiley.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2016 12:56:17 +0000
To: "ishida@w3.org" <ishida@w3.org>, AUDRAIN LUC <LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr>, Dave Cramer <dauwhe@gmail.com>
CC: W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>, www International <www-international@w3.org>
Message-ID: <6ab42ba6b8ff46e19368eb4ab91a6081@CAR-WNMBP-006.wiley.com>
Yes, the windmills section is a quote. I don't really want to duplicate the whole Chicago Manual of Style here, but here are the relevant sections (the formatting including <ol> is stripped out, sorry):

http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch13/ch13_sec028.html

13.28Quotations and “quotes within quotes”

Quoted words, phrases, and sentences run into the text are enclosed in double quotation marks. Single quotation marks enclose quotations within quotations; double marks, quotations within these; and so on. (The practice in the United Kingdom and elsewhere is often the reverse: single marks are used first, then double, and so on.) When the material quoted consists entirely of a quotation within a quotation, only one set of quotation marks need be employed (usually double quotation marks). For permissible changes from single to double quotation marks and vice versa, see 13.7 (item 1); see also 13.61. For dialogue, see 13.37. For technical uses of single quotation marks, see 7.50, 8.129.

“Don’t be absurd!” said Henry. “To say that ‘I mean what I say’ is the same as ‘I say what I mean’ is to be as confused as Alice at the Mad Hatter’s tea party. You remember what the Hatter said to her: ‘Not the same thing a bit! Why you might just as well say that “I see what I eat” is the same thing as “I eat what I see”!’ ”

Note carefully not only the placement of the single and double closing quotation marks but also that of the exclamation points in relation to those marks in the example above. Question marks and exclamation points are placed just within the set of quotation marks ending the element to which such terminal punctuation belongs. For the placement of other punctuation—commas, periods, question marks, and so on—in relation to closing quotation marks, see 6.9–11.  

http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch13/ch13_sec007.html

13.7Permissible changes to punctuation, capitalization, and spelling

Although in a direct quotation the wording should be reproduced exactly, the following changes are generally permissible to make a passage fit into the syntax and typography of the surrounding text. See also 13.8.

    Single quotation marks may be changed to double, and double to single (see 13.28); punctuation relative to quotation marks should be adjusted accordingly (see 6.9). Guillemets and other types of quotation marks in a foreign language may be changed to regular single or double quotation marks (see 13.71).

    The initial letter may be changed to a capital or a lowercase letter (see 13.13–16).

    A final period may be omitted or changed to a comma as required, and punctuation may be omitted where ellipsis points are used (see 13.48–56).

    Original note reference marks (and the notes to which they refer) may be omitted unless omission would affect the meaning of the quotation. If an original note is included, the quotation may best be set off as a block quotation (see 13.9), with the note in smaller type at the end, or the note may be summarized in the accompanying text. Authors may, on the other hand, add note references of their own within quotations.

    Obvious typographic errors may be corrected silently (without comment or sic; see 13.59), unless the passage quoted is from an older work or a manuscript source where idiosyncrasies of spelling are generally preserved. If spelling and punctuation are modernized or altered for clarity, readers must be so informed in a note, in a preface, or elsewhere.

    In quoting from early printed documents, the archaic Latin ʃ (small letter esh, Unicode character U+0283, similar to the integral sign), used to represent a lowercase s at the beginning or in the middle but never at the end of a word (“Such goodneʃs of your juʃtice, that our ʃoul . . .”), may be changed to a modern s. Similarly, Vanitie and Vncertaintie (a quoted title) may be changed to Vanitie and Uncertaintie, but writers or editors without a strong background in classical or Renaissance studies should generally be wary of changing u to v, i to j, or vice versa. See also 11.61, 11.142–43.


Tzviya Siegman
Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
Wiley
201-748-6884
tsiegman@wiley.com 


-----Original Message-----
From: ishida@w3.org [mailto:ishida@w3.org] 
Sent: Friday, April 08, 2016 6:28 AM
To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken; AUDRAIN LUC; Dave Cramer
Cc: W3C Digital Publishing IG; www International
Subject: Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks

Thanks, Tsviya!

i'm assuming that the whole second para, about windmills, is an example?

afaict, the description doesn't address secondary quote marks (ie. those that are inside primary quote marks).  I interpret "except that quotation marks replace guillemets (or their equivalents)" to refer to the primary quote marks(?), which i think is non-controversial.

cheers,
ri

On 07/04/2016 18:58, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken wrote:
> You asked for style guide information, from the Chicago Manual of 
> Style 
> (http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/16/ch13/ch13_sec071.html?sessionI

> d=b62584a6-b3ab-4377-87cc-526192e4d313 - I think behind a paywall)
>
> 13.71 Typographic style of foreign quotations Quotations in a foreign 
> language that are incorporated into an English text are normally treated like quotations in English, set in roman type and run in or set off as block quotations according to their length. They are punctuated as in the original except that quotation marks replace guillemets (or their equivalents), and spacing relative to punctuation is adjusted to conform to the surrounding text (see 11.10). For isolated words and phrases, see 7.49. For excerpts from the original language following an English translation, see 13.73.
>
> The narrator’s “treinta o cuarenta molinos de viento” become Quixote’s “treinta, o pocos más, desaforados gigantes”—a numerical correspondence that lets the reader trust, at the very least, the hero’s basic grasp of reality.
>
> If em dashes are used for dialogue in the original (see 11.34, 11.52, 11.80, 11.121), they should be retained in a block quotation but may be replaced by quotation marks if only a phrase or sentence is quoted.
>
> Tzviya Siegman
> Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead Wiley
> 201-748-6884
> tsiegman@wiley.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ishida@w3.org [mailto:ishida@w3.org]
> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2016 12:38 PM
> To: AUDRAIN LUC; Dave Cramer
> Cc: W3C Digital Publishing IG; www International
> Subject: Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks
>
> On 07/04/2016 16:44, AUDRAIN LUC wrote:
>> About quotations marks, here are some hints about French usage :
>>
>> Quotation marks are called « guillemets » and are used in typography
>> for quotation.
>>
>> At first level, they are called French guillemets : « ... » At second
>> level, they are called English guillemets and are written with these
>> glyohs “ ... ”
>>
>> Exemples :
>> * « Là, tout n'est qu'ordre et beauté, luxe, calme et volupté. »
>> * « L'ouvreuse m'a dit : “ Donnez-moi votre ticket. ” Je le lui ai
>> donné. »
>
> bonjour Luc,
>
> yes, i did say in my initial email that i was basing the punctuation in the examples on Canadian French rules (specifically, those specified for fr-CA in CLDR). I did this to get a completely distinctive set of punctuation to make the examples easier to read. But to be honest i translated the passage from Room with a View into the French i know, which is European, and in my markup i use fr rather than fr-CA just to make it easier to read the example.
>
> So, yes, take the examples with a pinch of salt per the character details – the key question is actually about what how to proceed rather than what characters to use for French.
>
> cheers,
> ri
>

Received on Friday, 8 April 2016 12:56:52 UTC

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