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Re: Expected behaviour of quotation marks

From: AUDRAIN LUC <LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr>
Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 17:44:14 +0200
To: "ishida@w3.org" <ishida@w3.org>, Dave Cramer <dauwhe@gmail.com>
CC: W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>, www International <www-international@w3.org>
Message-ID: <D32C4BA3.7DABC%laudrain@hachette-livre.fr>
About quotations marks, here are some hints about French usage :

Quotation marks are called « guillemets » and are used in typography for
quotation.

At first level, they are called French guillemets : « ... »
At second level, they are called English guillemets and are written with
these glyohs “ ... ”

Exemples :
* « Là, tout n'est qu'ordre et beauté, luxe, calme et volupté. »
* « L'ouvreuse m'a dit : “ Donnez-moi votre ticket. ” Je le lui ai donné. »

Luc




Le 07/04/2016 16:39, « ishida@w3.org » <ishida@w3.org> a écrit :

>On 07/04/2016 09:12, Dave Cramer wrote:
>> There's a mention of this in the CSS Generated Content Spec at [1]. See
>> example 9 and the preceding note:
>
>Thanks for the link, Dave.  The most interesting part of example 9 is
>actually a different case from the one i had mentioned, ie. it is:
>
>Il disait: « Il faut mettre l’action en ‹ fast forward ›. »
>
>which has the pattern A(A(B)), where A stands for one language, and B
>for another.
>
>It seems quite logical to use ‹ around fast forward in this case,
>because the parens belong to the language of the text containing the
>quotation, which in this case is still French.
>
>The case of Lucy and Mr. Emerson has the pattern A(B(B)), which
>introduces a secondary quotation mark inside text that has already
>switched language, and therefore presents a somewhat more interesting
>conundrum.
>
>So far, most people have suggested that this should be written:
>
>Mais Lucy répond: «Give George my love – once only. Tell him,  ‹Muddle.›».
>
>following the rule that the form of the quotation marks ignores any
>change in language from that of the reader, so as not to avoid
>introducing visual confusion. Which seems reasonable - although i'd
>still like to hear from people who work for big publishing houses about
>what their style guides say.
>
>
>
>
>The real difficulty starts when you begin marking things up. This is
>what i'm trying to get to.  If the html tag has lang=fr and the para is
>marked up like this:
>
><p>Mais Lucy répond: <q lang=en>Give George my love – once only. Tell
>him, <q>Muddle.</q></q>.</p>
>
>and, if you use the styling suggested in the css-content spec, ie.
>
>:lang(fr) > * { quotes: "« " " »" "‹ " " ›" }
>:lang(en) > * { quotes: "“" "”" "‘" "’" }
>
>you won't end up with
>
>Mais Lucy répond: « Give George my love – once only. Tell him, ‹Muddle.›
>».
>
>you'll end up with
>
>Mais Lucy répond: « Give George my love – once only. Tell him, ‘Muddle.’
>».
>
>because the quotation is marked up for language.
>
>Ok, so let's try applying the styling pattern recommended by the HTML5
>spec, which is (in slightly edited form):
>
>:root:lang(en), :not(:lang(en)) > :lang(en) { quotes: '“' '”' '‘' '’' }
>
>:root:lang(fr), :not(:lang(fr)) > :lang(fr) { quotes: '«' '»' '‹' '›' }
>
>
>Now you end up with:
>
>Mais Lucy répond: “Give George my love – once only. Tell him, ‘Muddle.’”.
>
>
>
>To bring this in line with what most people are suggesting so far, it
>seems to me that the styling for q needs to be based on the language
>identified as that of the reader, only. In many cases, that's the
>language at the top of the page in the html tag.  In a bilingual page in
>French Canadian, however, the lang attribute you need may be somewhere
>further down the hierarchy, at some rather arbitray point, and may be
>difficult to identify.
>
>Perhaps what we need is a CSS rule that says, 'If you're not inside a q
>element, then set the quotes per the language outside the quote; but if
>you are inside, ignore the language info.'
>
>I'm not quite sure how to say that in selector-speak yet.
>
>
>
>
>ri
>

Received on Thursday, 7 April 2016 15:44:42 UTC

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