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meeting minutes 2015-10-19

From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 07:01:38 +0200
Cc: Jake Archibald <jakearchibald@google.com>
Message-Id: <173CEEA3-01DD-4445-B983-FBC694F3E60E@w3.org>
To: W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Minutes are here:

http://www.w3.org/2015/10/19-dpub-minutes.html <http://www.w3.org/2015/10/19-dpub-minutes.html>

textual version below.

Jake, thanks again for joining this call

Ivan

----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

            Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

19 Oct 2015

   [2]Agenda

      [2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Oct/0058.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2015/10/19-dpub-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Peter Krautzberger, Dave Cramer, Markus Gylling, Luc
          Audrain, Nick Barreto, Tzviya Siegman, Heather Flanagan,
          Ivan Herman, Bill Kasdorf, Deborah Kaplan, Paul
          Belfanti, Karen Myers, Julie Morris, Tim Cole, Charles
          LaPierre, Alan Stearns, Daniel Weck

   Guest
          Jake Archibald

   Regrets
          Ben De Meester, Brady Duga, Laura Fowler, Ayla Stein,
          Zheng Xu

   Chair
          tzviya

   Scribe
          mgylling

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]last weeks minutes
         2. [6]ServiceWorkers with special guest Jake Archibald
         3. [7]extend descriptions for images and other things
         4. [8]PWP outreach
     * [9]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________

   <trackbot> Date: 19 October 2015

   <tzviya> agenda:
   [10]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015
   Oct/0039.html

     [10] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Oct/0039.html

   scribenick mgylling

   <tzviya> scribe: mgylling

   tzviya: new member introduction: Nick Barreto

   nickbarreto: I am the cofounder of Canelo, a digital publisher
   in the UK.

   … been working with ebooks mostly for large publishers, one of
   the the things we care about is doing digital publishing not as
   an afterthought but bringing it to the forefront

   <tzviya> [11]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/12-dpub-minutes.html

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2015/10/12-dpub-minutes.html

   Tzviya: We are happy to have you

last weeks minutes

   tzviya: any comments?

   Luc: I was present but I am not on the list

ServiceWorkers with special guest Jake Archibald

   <Karen> PWP

   Jake: I work for Google Chrome in the UK, one of the co-editors
   of the Service Workers spec

   <tzviya> [12]http://www.w3.org/TR/service-workers/

     [12] http://www.w3.org/TR/service-workers/

   … what do you want to know from me? An overview?

   … SW itself is just a javascript runtime that can operate on a
   separate thread. Key difference in life cycle is that it can
   spin up without the existence of pages on the origin

   … the starting point for the web becomes the SW rather than the
   page. One of the key features is offline because you get a
   fetch event for every request the page makes, so you can create
   an offline experience by listening for fetch events

   … you get to choose what to do, the default being nothing, but
   you can create a response, a string or blob and send that back

   … or you can fetch things from named caches, from IndexedDB

   … gold standard of this type of app development is “offline
   first”, create the offline experience before even attempting to
   go to the network, seeing the network as progressive
   enhancement

   … the aim is to ship stuff from the caches as quickly as
   possible, and then go to the network

   … lots of user experience we are trying to figure out now, but
   the SW specification doesn't make any of these decision

   <tzviya>  [13]http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-pwp-20151015/#arch

     [13] http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-pwp-20151015/#arch

   tzviya: summary I hope fits with the PWP document we have
   published

   … historically most digital publications are an offline
   experience, but we are looking to bridge online and offline for
   the user as a seamless experience

   Jake: haven’t had time to read the PWP doc yet

   dauwhe: I played around with this a little bit, one of the
   things we are thinking about is how to we make ebooks first
   class citizens on the web. How can we make a good reading
   experience in browsers without the need for dedicated reading
   systems? Basic functionality we want to achieve on the web, and
   reading offline is one example of the functionality we need

   … using SW was step on, I am curious about what more could we
   do? If the SW intercepts a URL request, can it redirect?

   Jake: when the user requests a particular URL you can respond
   with another. We are also working on streams

   … you could use a SW to build an ebook reader which would
   request one of these ebook formats on the fly and rewrite it to
   HTML, even streaming if the ebook format supports streaming

   dauwhe: in EPUB we are looking at an unzipped format

   Jake: the problem with the zip format is that the directory is
   at the end of the file

   dauwhe: Readium uses byte ranges I think for zip

   ivan: There is work going on on more streamable web packaging,
   heard gossip that all this was pending, since SW would take
   care of it. Do you know about this?

   <dauwhe> [14]http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/

     [14] http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/

   Jake: a while ago I heard about this, personally I am not sure
   what the benefits are, we have a platform where we can store
   things separately. I guess that's why they are waiting for SW.
   We are very much subscribed to the extensible web manifesto
   with this, going as low as we can.

   … but something like recieving a zip format and searching
   inside is one thing SW can do

   ivan: that was the main reason they were looking at the
   packaging stuff, the other questions I have is more on the
   practical side: I looked at the spec, I am not a webapp
   developer and I could not understand it. Is there work going on
   to sort of popularize the whole thing to make it more
   palatable?

   Jake: I symphatize, as a web developer even I find the specs
   impenetrable. At the moment I am working on an offline course
   through Udacity [?] and free

   … hope to release that in December, hope to convert it to a
   series of articles as well

   <tzviya> [15]https://jakearchibald.com/ is also helpful

     [15] https://jakearchibald.com/

   Ivan: it is part of Chrome already, works in Firefox too, what
   about the other two?

   Jake: Firefox will be fully implemented soon. Microsoft has
   given thumbs up, but has not started work on it. The big
   question everyone asks is about iOS Safari. We are not sure
   about the progress there. They are now taking part in the F2F
   meetings which is a positive.

   … but there is no date for that

   BillK: we should be careful to avoid the linear eBook paradigm,
   not just a matter of unpacking an navigating linearly

   Jake: F2F next week we will try to solve how to deal with range
   requests

   … can you build a cached item progressively using multiple
   requests

   … the web doesn't really need packaged formats, range requests
   are a preferred model

   … I took a stab at making an offline version of Wikipedia. That
   model worked really well, you might not cache the whole thing
   offline

   dauwhe: I just wanted to partly answer Ivan's question about
   the difficulty of the spec. There were enough tutorials out
   there that I could create my sample using that.

   Jake: one of the things on our TODO list for next year is a
   shim for SW that will read AppCache manifests, to provide a
   path for people who just wants to read a list of files

   … we want to sit back and see what the common things are

   DanielWeck: I am a developer at Readium, OSS implementation of
   EPUB 3 Reading Systems, native apps and web-based readers inc a
   Chrome app.

   … Readium will read an EPUB that is exploded on the server
   side. Unzip onto a filesystem on a server, and Readium can
   fetch the data from the unpacked file system. The challenges we
   face is when we try to fetch data in the zipped form.

   … what we have to do extract the contents of the EPUB on the
   fly, we can do that using a ZIP library and using byte-range
   requests, however the main caveat is that we have to
   preprocess, parse the content recursively and populate that
   tree with blob URIs which creates problems in a WebView. But SW
   solves that problem since we can intercept requests

   … using syntactic conventions we can capture that via the fetch
   event and return responses that will emit a payload

   … this could be extended to media files, but we haven't
   implemented that yet

   … Our implementation does not use SW for caching, only for
   request intercepts

   … caveats: the domain scope of the SW implementation has to be
   hosted under a particular location on the filesystem on the
   serverside

   Jake: that is true but you can override that with a header

   DanielWeck: we’ve got same-origin requirements on EPUB content,
   is that inflexible?

   Jake. Yeah. The whole reason for the same-origin constraints is
   […] security and privacy

   DanielWeck: requirements for https. I didn't face any issues
   there, but you have to use https?

   Jake: Yes, we tried to avoid but couldn't find a way to do it

   … if you are on a router that is not yours, you don't know it
   is safe, if you access BBC news, a man in the middle can
   intercept that, which is bad. But it gets worse if the register
   a service worker which can intercept and live beyond the
   session lifetime. That is possible with AppCache, which is
   really bad.

   DanielWeck: the fact that the SW is by design [???] we don't
   want to wait for SW registration to finish. The need to reload
   the page […]

   Jake: I would have some kind of, if
   navigator.serviceworker.controller is undefined, show some kind
   of loading screen. You dont need to refresh the page, you can
   call client.claim()

   <DanielWeck> delayed Service Worker registration (first-time
   reload), general Worker restrictions (no XmlHTTPRequest),
   browser support

   tzviya: Daniel: sounds like you have many questions for Jake.
   Maybe we can solve this via email.

   <astearns> what's the best public list for service worker
   feedback/questions?

   … at TPAC we cant do a formal meeting since our groups are
   meeting on the same day, but informal discussions we hope can
   happen

   ivan: the work we do in this interest group might rely a lot on
   Service Workers moving forward, in the future we may need
   probably several times help from you

   Jake: thats what I am here for

   tzviya: Daniel maybe we can arrange for you to call in
   ... thanks Jake!

extend descriptions for images and other things

   deborah: I believe we are just doing a brief update, we had
   been given a request from PF to tell us if this is what you
   want, we made some modifications which are here:

   <dkaplan3>
   [16]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/extended-descriptio
   n-analysis.html

     [16] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/extended-description-analysis.html

   <dkaplan3>
   [17]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/extended-descriptio
   n-analysis.html#use-cases

     [17] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/extended-description-analysis.html#use-cases

   most changes are in the use cases section, where we talk about
   the possible use cases for ED. We have stepped back from
   pushing a particular term, and instead focus on the behavior we
   need

   … this is a list of functionality the Digital Publishing needs
   for accessibility purposes

   ivan: shoot

   deborah: then that's what we will do

   … extra thanks to Mia Lipner from Pearson

   tzviya: and many thanks to Deborah too

PWP outreach

   karen: thanks to tzviya and nick we started to iterate and
   here’s a draft

   … to contextualize what this PWP is and what it means. We are
   hoping that you could take a look

   … scroll down to communications planning. Still needs some
   links and things. After our discussion last week, we wanted
   feedback to see if this communication makes sense, for W3C,
   IDPF, DBW, PW, etc

   ivan: whats the timing? We have published but we haven't done
   any outreach

   karen: preferred timing would be next week

   <Karen> Not yet, no

   … lets wait with tweeting etc until we agree with the messaging

   tzviya: five minutes left

   … next week no meeting since we are at TPAC

   … in the following week we will have shifted daylight savings.
   We will stay with the local times and shift the UTC.

   <dauwhe> werewolf time!

   tzviya: thanks everyone

Summary of Action Items

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________


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