[Minutes] 2015-06-29 Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

Hi all,

The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference 
dated 2015-06-29 are now available at

     http://www.w3.org/2015/06/29-dpub-minutes.html

These public minutes are also linked from the dpub wiki
     http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings

Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your convenience.

Best,

Thierry Michel

___________________________________________________________

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

             Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

29 Jun 2015

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0138.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2015/06/29-dpub-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Ivan Herman, Nick Ruffilo, Toru Kawakubo, Dave Cramer,
           Tzviya Siegman, Peter Krautzberger, Charles Clapierre,
           Luc Audrain, Brady Duga, Alan Stearns, Ben De Meester,
           Deborah Kaplan, Heather Flanagan, Liam Quin, Bert Boss,
           Thierry Michel.

    Regrets
           Bill Kasdorf, Julie Morris, Ayla Stein.

    Chair
           Tzviya

    Scribe
           NickRuffilo

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]CSS Prioritization
          2. [6]changes to white paper
      * [7]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 29 June 2015

    <scribe> scribenick: NickRuffilo

    <laudrain> present_ Luc

    <HeatherF> Mute early, mute often.

    <tzviya> [8]http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-dpub-minutes.html

       [8] http://www.w3.org/2015/06/22-dpub-minutes.html

    Tzviya: "any comments on minutes for last week?"

    <pkra> +1

    <HeatherF> Sorry I missed it

    Tzviya: "Silence is golden - the minutes from last week
    are..... APPROVED!"
    ... "Web Annotations Update"

    topic Web Annonations Update

    <tzviya> [9]http://www.w3.org/annotation/

       [9] http://www.w3.org/annotation/

    Ivan: "as you know the group was created after a workshop. We
    have no quite a good mix of publishers and web-application
    developers. That's a good things. part of the good is semantic
    web - some are the more 'geeky' web developers. Contact is
    going OK - but they think different (tm)"

    <ivan> [10]http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/model/wd/
    ...: "There are no issues, that's just the dynamics. As you may
    know, the group started with a specific specification that
    wasn't a W3C standard - but was created by a community group -
    the open annotations community group. They had a pretty
    complete specification. That was the main input for the work
    there. That work is the annotation data model. The way
    annotations are represented when

      [10] http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/model/wd/

    moving to different systems. There was a first working draft
    that was published."

    ivan: "That document is mostly the same as the community draft.
    Biggest difference is that this is based less on semantic web
    and TTL (one of the usual languages used for semantic web) and
    it has been translated into JSON - and it has both, so it lets
    you choose how you'd like to read it. There were some minor
    changes."

    <ivan> [11]http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/protocol/wd/
    ...: "There is a documentation called Web Annotations Protocol
    (linked above). it's in a fairly good state and we hope to have
    it out in the first working draft in 1-2 weeks. It's actually a
    document that is based on a recommendation that was recently
    published at W3C the LDP (linked data protocol) which looked at
    how you transfer this types of data over HTTP and store them,
    retrieve them, etc
    . Fairly minor specification on top of the existing protocol."

      [11] http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/protocol/wd/

    <ivan> [12]http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/api/rangefinder/
    ...: " The 3rd document that is in prep that we hope will be a
    draft within a few weeks is the Rangefinder API, which comes
    closer and closer to the things we've discussed. The issues is
    how do you define a range or a sequence of characters, or place
    in a document to which you can attach some annotations - so you
    can also change, so it's relatively stable to changes to the
    document as a whole
    . It's currently and API for Javascript - mainly for JS
    applications that are running on the client. But it has issues
    on JS level things on how you can get the text of a selection,
    and find it in a document... If you look at the document itself
    it's full of alot of issues. It needs a lot of work."
    ...: "Once this rangefinder is specified, there should be some
    sort of URI or serialization of it, so I can define it in terms
    of URI, or fragment ID."
    ... "There are lots of discussions on various use cases and
    technical details. There are directions that have been raised
    that we still don't know if we'll do more. Still not sure if we
    want to define and API in Javascript. I don't know if this will
    be defined. It is still something we have to look at. The other
    thing that is regularly coming up - the annotation data model
    is JSON or Turtle
    . Implementation will be JSON, but there are discussions on
    whether there is an HTML serialization of the model..."
    ...: "The way it could be used is that a client could add such
    elements into the DOM tree. Since it's in terms of the DOM, it
    can be styled easily in general - which is probably something
    very useful. Whether this would be done using existing elements
    or whether it would be done as an extension to HTML is unknown.
    We haven't had any serious discussions on it yet."
    ... "We have some overlaps - which is good. Bill K is regularly
    on the call. Rob Sanderson will hopefully come back soon..."

      [12] http://w3c.github.io/web-annotation/api/rangefinder/

    <HeatherF> I can hear folks just fine, ivan included

    <pkra> me too.

    <tzviya>
    [13]https://www.w3.org/annotation/wiki/Use_Cases#Use_Cases_by_t
    he_Web_Annotation_Working_Group

      [13] 
https://www.w3.org/annotation/wiki/Use_Cases#Use_Cases_by_the_Web_Annotation_Working_Group

    Tzviya: "From my perspective - what is happening in my
    day-to-day - my colleague is attending the annotation meetings.
    There are topics we are both discussing. Issues liek fragment
    identifier come up, and it may be helpful for everyone to
    discuss the overlaps. The use-cases that the WG put together
    would be useful. The copy-edit use-case for example."

    <Zakim> liam, you wanted to discuss quick note on copy/edi use
    case

    Liam: "This relates to copy-edit use-case. There is a
    change-markup working group. They implemented the open-office
    using open markup - may be worth considering what they do."

    <liam> [14]https://www.w3.org/community/change/

      [14] https://www.w3.org/community/change/

    Tzviya: "Idea is to keep the work we are doing in sync. make
    sure we're aware of what everyone is working on."

CSS Prioritization

    <liam> (I think that is right; DeltaXML has offered their
    technology to W3C)

    <tzviya>
    [15]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015
    Jun/0091.html

      [15] 
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0091.html

    <dauwhe> google doc:
    [16]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15IsDMPwSXx197Iqe4I9
    xh7K8anmJ5c0-OFEG7w0LHYM/edit?usp=sharing

      [16] 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15IsDMPwSXx197Iqe4I9xh7K8anmJ5c0-OFEG7w0LHYM/edit?usp=sharing

    Tzivya: "Dave has put together a list of CSS priorities."

    <dauwhe> The start of a more expository version:
    [17]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html
    ...: "We can spend some time today work on the priorities
    list."
    ... "Thank you dave - this is the thing we really need to send
    to the CSS working group

      [17] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html

    <pkra> I'm here.
    ...: "It's STARTING in google docs for easy and quick edits -
    but we're doing an HTML doc in github as well"

    <pkra> (not sure my mic works though)

    Dave: "I think some of this may end up merging with latinReq so
    i'm still figuring out the best way to collect and display this
    information"

    <pkra> mpf

    <pkra> will dial-in again.

    Tzviya: "Any other comments?"

    <laudrain> +q

    Luc: "I was just wondering why footnotes is #3? Is it because
    it's already processed/specified?"

    <pkra> liam I did "Present+ pkra"

    <pkra> I'm doa;e

    <pkra> (please pignore my single-handed typing)

    Dave: "Right now it's mostly a print feature and I'm not sure
    there is consensus that it works within digial publishing.
    Within paged media I'm not sure there is a reason to display
    footnotes as they do in print. It's a feature that's incredibly
    difficult to spec. We are a long way from having interest for
    implementations. It will have to be a lot of lower level
    features - and it is a

    problematic area."

    Luc: "if we treat footnotes as we do in paper, it could be
    complex, but if we treat it as a place where we treat it
    differently in digital - it comes down to spec."

    Tzviya: "That's an issue for semantics of HTML, not for CSS. "

    Luc: "Do we really want footnotes to display at the bottom of
    the page in digital?"

    DavE: "people are doing tons of things in HTML. There are
    popups, and all sorts of renderings. In open-web, we can do
    many renderings, but the bottom of a page is not really
    possible. Until there are some specific display-mode that
    people agree on, it may be a bit pre-mature. i'm not sure what
    we would do right now, besides saying "we want displays at the
    bottom of the page." that would

    need new CSS or markup."

    Peter: "How far the MathML spec is a reasonable reference? I
    suppose there is an open problem of MathML and CSS in general -
    and the reality of it in implementations... How useful is the
    MathML reference?"

    <pkra> sry'

    Dave: "Basically we're unsure how it will introduce it. For the
    spreadsheet - this isn't what we'll do when we finally present
    it. for each of the math issues - we have different points for
    different sections of the spec. We know much exists in the
    MathML spec. For the spreadsheet - spell out what items you
    want and why (specifics). We'll get to the politics later on."

    <Zakim> liam, you wanted to note a tablet sized reader with
    visible footnotes could be a killer feature in education,
    should be based onuser choice not on CSS and javascript

    Liam: "The spreadsheet is great - another aspect is what should
    be under USER control and what should be publisher control. You
    may also want to say 'i want to see footnotes at the bottom of
    the screen' If footnotes are marked up, the readers will have
    the ability to let the users choose. We should bear that in
    mind."
    ... 'User style sheets are a low-level thing. No user in the
    planet is capable of writing it, so it becomes the job of the
    user-agent. This is more global.'

    Brady: "The user-stylesheet is misnamed. It's broader - the
    ability for the user to do interesting things. User-stylesheet
    is probably not the right word."

    <liam> [e.g. "display footnotes at bottom of screen" depends on
    footnotes being marked up in the text]

    Peter: "I think actual work needs to happen between MathML and
    HTML/CSS is equations. How far is it appropriate to link to the
    mathML spec as a solution to the problem when they are supposed
    to be CSS problems."

    <pkra> thx

    Dave: "Linking to MathML is perfectly appropriate. It is a spec
    that has a solution to a particular problem - even if in a
    different space.
    ...: "Going back to user-control over styling. I see that as a
    huge issue, on the scale of being it's own task force, I don't
    think it has been explored nearly enough. My sense is that that
    is the model that CSS was built on and it's entirely inadequate
    - and we need to think about that area."

    +1

    <tzviya> +1

    <astearns> +1 to more discussion on user customization - the
    discussion usually ends on "not user stylesheets" and needs to
    progress past that

    Tzviya: "we should not hesitate at ALL on commenting - this is
    an early document, please comment."
    ... "Think of it as a brainstorming thing - priority is hard to
    assign and I think dave has done a good job so far with
    priorities, if you have input, dave would appreciate it. If
    things are missing, throw them in. We also need to figure out
    what to do NEXT with the document. And how we bring it up to
    our friends."

    Dave: "If we have more priorities - more things we want but
    don't have - after that it is alot of wordsmitthing and
    information and such."
    ... "Input on priorities is greatly appreciated. I found some
    recurring themes. And posted on twitter..."

    Ivan: "Let's remember how we started with this current round.
    It started because there was a disconnect between DPUB and CSS
    WG - and CSS had a false impression that the DPUB community
    doesn't have anything to ask for - we're all happy with
    problems solved!"
    ...: "What this table shows is that this is not true. What we
    want to show is to see what is the most helpful for the CSS
    working group to influence the way the CSS working group
    evolves so that everyone is equally happy. Not sure we should
    go back into our corner for half a year. we should see this as
    a continuous discussion."

    Bert: "Hard to say what the BEST approach is, but probably good
    to have some people meet at the fence. To get to the
    prioirities - you'd need a champion who can talk to people -
    alan, dave, myself. Try to get those people to speak up at the
    CSS working group. People can read the documents, but you need
    someone to explain them in a nice voice

    Ivan: "We did have the idea - chris offered to come to this
    call at some point - more interested in pagination that
    houdini, etc. We could invite daniel glazman, etc. Would be
    good to have regular contact"

    Nick: "Might be worth a read-through of EPUB3 spec and Apple
    Spec"

    Dave: "Most of what we've discussed are in multiple specs - so
    one of our big task is leaning on browser vendors to actually
    implement these things."
    ... "The CSS working group might not be the only working group
    to do that."

    Not just browsers - also ereading platforms

    Ivan: "We should separate features that land on CSS working
    group and features that are just about implementation by
    browsers/reading systems"

    <laudrain> Sorry, have to quit

    Dave: "Ways of structuring that are evolved - I've been trying
    to have a category for 'things that need spec' 'things that
    have been spec'd but need implementation' ..."

    Tzviya: "We have a few tasks in front - items we're asking for,
    and from whom we're making the request. Our immediate goal is
    to list the items we're asking for. Then what to do next is a
    little more complicated. Not alot of support for
    implementation. We need it written up and fairly quickly."

    <HeatherF> Yes
    ...: "Everyone get comments in by end of the week. Is that
    enough time for the first draft?"

    +1

    <HeatherF> :-D
    ...: "In the following weeks we'll work towards documentation."

    Liam: "When i get a chance, I'll add the properties in XSL-FO
    that aren't yet in CSS"

    Charles: "In reviewing the document - I see accessibility -
    it's blank right now. Isn't that a big issue?"
    ... "With screen-readers and hyphenation - getting that
    working..."

    Dave: "That's also a question with initial letters, pseudo
    elements - making sure ..."
    ...: "What sort of virtual elements..."

    Tzviya: "We need to make sure WHAT we are working on is
    accessible. We may not right it, but it may get passed to PF
    for an accessibility review. Most of what we're asking for is
    generated content - which is not accessibile."

    <pkra> [18]http://bocoup.com/weblog/text-rendering/

      [18] http://bocoup.com/weblog/text-rendering/

    Peter: "I just was wondering what to do about the above issue.
    Somebody analyzed that improving text rendering came with
    significant performance. Even if we get issues into CSS, but
    they aren't usable, that gives other issues..."

    Dave: "On thing is we all have different use cases in different
    environments. There are features that are not appropriate
    because of context, etc. If readability is more important than
    60FPS, we give authors tools so they can make tradeoffs
    themselves."

    Brady: "The performance issues are difficult to leave up to
    publishers - a 2meg chapters, with optimized legibility and
    pagination, it's hard to tell the publisher to worry about
    that, or the reading system. Although not sure what CSS can
    do."

changes to white paper

    <tzviya>
    [19]http://w3c.github.io/epubweb/draft/#general-architecture-fo
    r-portable-offline-and-online-states

      [19] 
http://w3c.github.io/epubweb/draft/#general-architecture-for-portable-offline-and-online-states

    <ivan> [20]http://w3c.github.io/epubweb/draft/

      [20] http://w3c.github.io/epubweb/draft/

    ivan: "I've made changes to the white-paper based on the
    discussion on Cache - where some of us chimed in. I tried to
    put the general ideas in there. Before I put that in the main
    version, I'd like it to be reviewed."

    <ivan>
    [21]http://w3c.github.io/epubweb/draft/#general-architecture-fo
    r-online-offline-publications
    ...: "Actually that URI should be the right one. Please have a
    look today - because things need time to be read by others."

      [21] 
http://w3c.github.io/epubweb/draft/#general-architecture-for-online-offline-publications

    <tzviya>
    [22]http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-service-workers-20150625/

      [22] http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-service-workers-20150625/

    Tzviya: "Service workers is a first-public working draft."

    +1

    <HeatherF> +1

    <pkra> +1

    <tzviya> +1

    <Karen> +1

    <ivan> +1

    <astearns> +1

    <clapierre1> -1

    <bjdmeest> +1

    <Bert> +1

    <dauwhe> +1 in some other time zone :)

    tzviya: "Looking for comments on CSS prioritization and the
    EPUB-WEB white paper - ASAP!!!!"

Summary of Action Items

    [End of minutes]
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Present: Ivan_Herman Nick_Ruffilo Toru_Kawakubo Dave_Cramer Tzviya_Siegm
an pkra clapierre1 Luc duga astearns Ben_De_Meester Deborah_Kaplan Heath
er_Flanagan Liam_Quin Bert
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Found Date: 29 Jun 2015
Guessing minutes URL: [27]http://www.w3.org/2015/06/29-dpub-minutes.html
People with action items:

      [27] http://www.w3.org/2015/06/29-dpub-minutes.html

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Received on Monday, 29 June 2015 16:18:12 UTC