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[Minutes] 2015-07-06 Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

From: Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2015 18:10:22 +0200
Message-ID: <559AA86E.8000500@w3.org>
To: "public-digipub-ig@w3.org >> W3C Digital Publishing IG" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Hi all,

The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference 
dated 2015-07-06 are now available at

     http://www.w3.org/2015/07/06-dpub-minutes.html

These public minutes are also linked from the dpub wiki
     http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings

Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your convenience.

Best,

Thierry Michel

---------------------------

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

             Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

06 Jul 2015

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
http://www.w3.org/mid/b9986cf719ea4f3bafc2669f4a3ab2d0@CAR-WNMBP-006.wiley.com

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2015/07/06-dpub-irc

Attendees

    Present
        Dave Cramer, Tzviya Siegman, Bill Kasdorf, Chris Lilley,
    Toru Kawakubo, Ivan Herman, Tim Cole, Brady Duga, Deborah
    Kaplan, Ben De Meester, Peter Kreutzberger, Thierry Michel,
    David Stroup, Alan Stearns, Vladimir Levantovsky,  NickRuffilo.

    Regrets
        Luc Audrain, Phil Madans, Heather Flanagan, Julie Morris ,
    Zheng Xu.
    Chair
        Tzviya Siegman

    Scribe
        Nick Ruffilo

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]describedAt
      * [6]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 06 July 2015

    <scribe> scribenick: NickRuffilo

    <tzviya> agenda:
    [7]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015J
    ul/0007.html

       [7] 
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jul/0007.html

    <Bill_Kasdorf> I think Dave added a seventh agenda item, right?

    huh ui'm not getting audio hold

    <tzviya> [8]http://www.w3.org/2015/06/29-dpub-minutes.html

       [8] http://www.w3.org/2015/06/29-dpub-minutes.html

    <pkra> I got that.

    <ChrisL> webex says michael miller

    <pkra> webex is such a snitch

    tzviya: "We have some new people and unidentified people..."

    <ChrisL> can ppl hear me?

    <astearns> no

    No chris - still muted

    <ChrisL> well, odd

    <astearns> there we go

    OK - we hear you

    Chris: "Hello! I'm Chris Lilly technical director of
    Interaction Domain - involved in CSS, web-fonts, SVG. In
    particular, I'm here because I want a closer liason with CSS
    working group and Houdini. And what DPUB wants. I was invited
    for this call - and expect to participate regularly."

    Tzviya: "Anyone else new on the call? There are some new
    joiners of DPUB. Not sure if you're on the call or in IRC"

    <ChrisL> congrats Alan!

    Tzviya: "Adding a comment about DPUB and CSS -> the CSS Working
    group as identified new chairs - and Alan Sterns is one of the
    new chairs. Congratulations!"

    <Karen> +1 Alan as new co-chair in October

    Alan: "I will not be chair until october"

    <Bill_Kasdorf> +1

    <pkra> +1

    <ivan> +1

    Tzviya: "I believe there is only 1 thing on the agenda -
    discussing CSS with Chris. I've posted a bunch of links to CSS,
    our requirements, houdini. Dave has added many links to our
    priorities. Just the morning he added stuff to that. I'll turn
    this over to dave and chris"

    <dauwhe>
    [9]https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Functional_Requirements_for_
    Pagination

       [9] 
https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Functional_Requirements_for_Pagination

    <dauwhe>
    [10]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15IsDMPwSXx197Iqe4I9
    xh7K8anmJ5c0-OFEG7w0LHYM/edit#gid=2138850308

      [10] 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15IsDMPwSXx197Iqe4I9xh7K8anmJ5c0-OFEG7w0LHYM/edit#gid=2138850308

    <dauwhe>
    [11]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html

      [11] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html

    Dave: "We have been working on a couple of things - first was
    the wiki page that has functional requirements - based on early
    work by Brady - interacting with pages stuff. We're trying to
    collect our requirements there. The 2nd piece that we started
    working on is an explicit CSS priorities document which has
    been a google spreadsheet."

    <ChrisL> oh, I hadn't seen that spreadsheet before
    ...: "We will start to move it to a different format once it's
    more final and written up in a better format. There are tons of
    information and it's a challenge to figure out the best way to
    show it. But, it sort of feels useful to start collecting all
    these things 'in one place' that is really multiple places"

    Chris: "Dave is on the CSS group - I've poked him about Latin
    Requirements. But then there are all these other things that
    have new things."

    davE: "One of the core issues is - what is the reason for being
    for LatinReq... It didn't have anything to say about
    implementations and priorities."

    Chris: "I wasn't suggesting that it need be the only doc, just
    the only place I was looking."

    Dave: "Yes, LatinReq isn't enough - we need a W3C document that
    notes more information."

    Tzviya: "We're hoping to get a bit of clarification of what is
    going on with houdini and how this fits it in."

    Chris: "A feature of the web is using polyfills - so people
    don't have to wait for features to be added. This sort-of works
    but tends not to work if you use a bunch of them together. It
    ends up doing lots of re-implementation, which is pointless as
    the browser already knows how to do it. Also there are some
    things that are really hard to extend as it happens under the
    hood. The idea of houdini

    (and it's named after a magician) because it's trying to remove
    some of the hand-waving."
    ...: "It's a sub-group of CSS and the tag, but it's more API
    based. I think this is a new focus on new APIs and new
    extensibility points. To make it less abstract - we plan on
    exposing the box tree - it's largely assumed that the boxes
    that are made follow the element tree (there are a bunch of
    differences - and many over time) especially when you go across
    a fragment. You also might want to

    have things like Pages in there as well - which belong in a box
    tree and not the DOM tree. That is how I see houdini fitting
    in."

    <dauwhe> [12]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-display/#intro

      [12] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-display/#intro

    Dave: "In the CSS display spec there is a note about what it
    means to be in the box tree and DOM tree. This may end up being
    where we use these things - the display tree."

    <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Karen

    Karen: "That was one of the more articulate descriptions of
    houdini! Thank you! We really need to go to the next level of
    explaining 'what is this and how does it work together' so not
    only our members, but people interested have a clue. The next
    step would be to prepare a more plain-english 'for resources,
    for publishers, ...' think about how do we best communicate
    some of the work that we

    are doing to our community right now."

    Chris: "I agree that it is needed - and many W3C working groups
    need to work on. For houdini it is still up in the air, but in
    the upcoming Paris meeting, I believe we will be tackling this,
    and in October that would be a good time to address this
    issue."

    Karen: "I'll sync up with Nick on this."

    Ivan: "What you describe is one end of the spectrum. The other
    end is the poor technical people who have to do something with
    pagination in the reading system. When we had a discussion at
    the NY meetup - we discussed having 'these and these' features
    that should be in the CSS declarative style. We noted what is
    missing and what we were trying to get. The reader should be
    able to handle

    pagination through a declaration."
    ...: "Now there is another side saying that some super-magic
    should be doing this through houdini. Something that publishers
    & authors should be using. We ended up by saying we are unsure
    what line we need to be prepared for - and possibly both."

    Chris: "I hear what you say let me try to address. Declarative
    is the way it's going and where it will continue to go. Most
    poly-fills use declarative syntax that isn't used them
    implement. From authoring - no need to touch that stuff. you
    should be able to get far without scripting. For an implementer
    POV - which is extends a browser, there will be a need - as you
    won't want each individual

    item bringing in the polyfills - you want the browser to be a
    'browser ++'"

    Brady: "I think that is where we left it - that's the
    conclusion in my head. Publishers should be using these CSS
    specs in a declarative way - the reading system NEEDS to be
    able to use these polyfills. As an implementer, I have to
    struggle with adding the polyfills in a cross-browser way."
    ...: "Pagination is the most horrible thing that has ever
    happened - there is multi-column that gets panned around. You
    can do it by breaking up the DOM - as you have no idea where
    things end, so you have to figure out where text ends... People
    have done it with scrolling and putting a gap between pages.
    None of them quite work - and you cannot do things on a
    page-level. You can't do widows

    and orphans well either with many of these concepts."

    Tzviya: "Widow and orphan control and hyphenation are simple
    things that are very important - and difficult without the
    concept of a page."

    ivan: "if this is the way it goes, then we as a group need to
    accept that Houdini is there, and the implementors do the
    polyfills. Then the question is - do we have everything in CSS
    that the publishers need to make the declaratives?"
    ...: "Then we need to go back to the CSS working group to ask
    for certain things to be declared."

    Tzviya: "Alot of scholarly publishing uses PDF is because of
    MATH - even though we have MathML and other things, it's either
    difficult or NOT supported at all, and that's keeping the STEM
    world away."

    <pkra> same for education.

    Ivan: "What is it that the CSS working group needs from us? To
    have pagination on the priority list?"

    <tzviya>
    [13]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html

      [13] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html

    Chris: "There is a GAP analysis between what is specified and
    what browsers ACTUALLY do. What is the level of implementation?
    Also why - is there missing information?"
    ... "What is currently in use, what are the needs, and what
    isn't yet specified. having clear requirements and adequate
    detail - how it will be extended - how does it actually work -
    because CSS has suffered from multiple inconsistent
    implementations - we're trying to avoid doing that. Having
    multiple pagination requirements will be an issue.
    Demonstrating need with clarity and how it is

    additive and not breaking the model would be a high priority."

    Ivan: "Ok that makes sense"

    <ChrisL> yes, one way forward is to triage the existing specs
    and get agreements on which are the bad bits

    Dave: "I agree with Chris. I think one thing we need to do is
    that - there are alot of page related stuff in CSS specs. It's
    widely varying quality and in some cases there are things that
    have been that are described by the PDF formatters a long time
    ago and don't represent the modern concesus of how CSS should
    be designed. Even the CSS page-spec itself - and the margin
    boxes. At some point

    everyone needs to decide, do we go ahead with the older things
    and try to patch them up. Do we burn the village and rebuild
    with more modern concepts?"

    Chris: "Figuring out what isn't implemented - because it's
    rubbish - and removing that will help us see where we are
    going."

    Tzviya: "There are concerns & belief that this is used for
    print... This is - in some pockets - used for print, but all of
    our interests are beyond print. "

    Chris: "The reason I raised that is that the CSS working group
    looks at it as 'well, who prints web pages anyways' and the
    common use cases - such as tabbed viewing, and apps that are
    using slideshows - those tend to get brushed off."

    Ivan: "This pretty much relates to the other issue - the
    browser vendors - I see pagination as potentially pretty
    interesting from a user-interface point of view on the web.
    It's very long - then pagination as a find of user interface
    structure is something I would really love to have. And I must
    say that some of our own documents would benefit from such a
    use-case. Is this discussed at all

    by browsers? Do they see any argument about that at all?"

    Chris: "They do tend to brush it away. This is a problem that
    is also faced by accessibility - we want these for blind, color
    blind. In the early days, they did the research and found that
    the market was low - so browsers wouldn't implement. But, as
    new information comes out, they realize that there are more
    people who would benefit from such features - such as
    accessibility. We want to have

    cross-references so you can say 'page 28' but equally we want
    to say 'section 5.3.2' if we solve one, we can solve the other
    one. Then, what we need gets implemented."

    Ivan: "In a sense - would it also help if the publishing
    community put these kinds of arguments more explicilty the user
    interface for pagination."

    Chris: "yes. To some extent. Some needs to be explicit, and
    some is a battle plan you don't tell them until they fall for
    it."

    <pkra> sliders?

    Tzviya: "In the documents we're calling for - we should
    declaritively state that it works for slides, flashcards,
    cards, tiles."
    ...: "We should spell that out - so pagination isn't just for
    'books'"

    Tzviya: "Chris - do we need to clarify between CSS and Houdini
    when writing this document?"

    Chris: "I suggest not - see it as a continuum. Some things are
    implemented, some are IN CSS but not implemented. Some can be
    easily polyfilled, and some are hard/impossible to polyfill
    without houdini."

    <tzviya>
    [14]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html

      [14] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html

    Chris: "to clarify - the document is the wiki pages?"

    Tzviya: "Nope - this is the text version of the CSS worksheet"

    DavE: "this is evolving. I'm still fumbling a bit."

    Tzviya: "Dave should get more help and input from others in the
    group. "

    <ChrisL> yes, I commit to helping with this

    Tzviya: "We could use help determining implementation. We know
    what we want, but we're not sure where things would happen.
    There are a list of where specs exist. We could use help in
    that section."

    <ivan> ChrisL++

    Chris: "I already committed to some GAP analysis on pagination
    - so i'm already working on that. So I'll commit here, because
    this will make the research a bit more public."

    Tzviya: "OK."
    ... "Other comments? We have next-steps but I'll leave dave and
    chris."
    ...: "Everyone clear on next steps?"
    ... "Deborah - I see you're here. We need to get note to PF
    about ARIA Describe dat?"

describedAt

    Deborah: "Ok - Should we call what I have 'final'? George sent
    some comments and I incorporated what he suggested."

    Tzviya: "Just send the final version around."

    Deborah: "I'll do that this morning. This in particular is PF -
    feels - uncomfortable - about the ARIA describedAT ARIA role in
    that they don't think there is alot of buyin yet from
    publishers to implement. Our note is an explanation of 'why we
    think it is INCREDIBLY useful"

    <ChrisL> (discussion of aria described-at and aria 1.1 vs 2.0
    staging)

    Tzviya: "The reason they are considering deprecating it is
    because there is a new version. Deborah and Charles concluded -
    with lots of input - that now is not a good time to deprecate
    describedAT. They put together alot of examples of how it would
    be useful. So, we have this draft of the note. If any publisher
    in particular has strong feeling, they might as us as
    publishers to come to a PF

    meeting."
    ...: "If anyone wants to see the text get in touch wtih
    deborah, charles, or I."

    Deborah: "you can always conect me if you have suggestions or
    questions"

    Tzviya: "Anything else before we close it for today?"

    Ivan: "Worth noting as a heads-up that the document that Tzviya
    and Markus made with PF - the DPUB-ARIA document has gone
    through all the necessary hurdles - it will be published
    tomorrow! It has been accepted by Judy and michael is taking
    care of it.

    <Karen> +1 interpretation for publishing community

Summary of Action Items

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


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      [15] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
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Found ScribeNick: NickRuffilo
Inferring Scribes: NickRuffilo
Present: Dave_Cramer Tzviya_Siegman Bill_Kasdorf Chris_Lilley Toru_Kawak
ubo Ivan_Herman Tim_Cole duga Deborah_Kaplan Ben_De_Meester Peter Krautz
berger thierry david_stroup astearns Vlad Bert
Agenda: [18]http://www.w3.org/mid/b9986cf719ea4f3bafc2669f4a3ab2d0@CAR-W
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Found Date: 06 Jul 2015
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      [18] 
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      [19] http://www.w3.org/2015/07/06-dpub-minutes.html

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