Re: [dpub identifiers] Please review updated Identifiers TF wiki

Ivan,

That sounds correct.  Yes, it was the "very old days" where <a
name="blabla"/> was used.  I've been coding HTML since those days.  I don't
think that <a> is the right element FOR a section.  I just wanted to toss
out that practically that is how things have been implemented in the past.

Sounds like we've come up with quite a few really awesome suggestions, so
that's great.  And thank you for all the info.

-nick

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 12:29 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:

> Nick,
>
> I may be wrong with the exact history... but, I believe, in the (very?)
> old days the way to put in an anchor was to use <a name="blabla"/>. This
> then evolved with the appearance of the @id attribute but, for a long time,
> people used the idiom <a name="blabla" id="blabla"/> to put in an anchor
> just to make sure that it works with all browsers. However, by now, the
> usage of @id is enough, all browsers understand that and, furthermore, they
> understand it *on all elements*.
>
> Ie: using <a>, with an @id, is acceptable to put in an anchor. But Matt's
> text also shows that that it, somehow, says that this is a placeholder for
> a link (ie, your first option below), which is not the case for the use
> case we are discussing. I believe the practice should be of using an @id
> for a page marker on, say, the enclosing <p> element or, if one wants to be
> very precise, on a <span> element in place of <a>.
>
> Ivan
>
>
> > On 08 Apr 2015, at 20:40 , Nick Ruffilo <nickruffilo@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Matt,
> >
> > Thanks.  I don't quite understand what the 2nd part means.  Does that
> mean an <A> without an HREF is just a "If I knew what the URL was, I'd put
> a link here, but I don't?" or is it along the lines of "I would like a link
> to be able to point to this specific point in the document."
> >
> > I know that in practice, using # in a URL, the browser will simply find
> anything with that ID and scroll to it, turning any item with a unique
> identifier into an anchor of sorts.
> >
> > -Nick
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 2:28 PM, Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@bell.net>
> wrote:
> > The name attribute on <a> is deprecated now. To quote from the HTML5
> spec:
> >
> > If the a element has an href attribute, then it represents a hyperlink
> (a hypertext anchor) labeled by its contents.
> >
> > If the a element has no href attribute, then the element represents a
> placeholder for where a link might otherwise have been placed, if it had
> been relevant, consisting of just the element's contents.
> >
> >
> > From: Nick Ruffilo
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 2:25 PM
> > To: Matt Garrish
> > Cc: Bill Kasdorf ; Dave Cramer ; AUDRAIN LUC ; Ivan Herman ; Stein, Ayla
> ; Thierry Michel ; W3C Digital Publishing IG
> > Subject: Re: [dpub identifiers] Please review updated Identifiers TF wiki
> >
> > Isn't the <a> supposed to be an anchor and not a link?  And <a> with a
> href="" is clearly a link, but otherwise, couldn't an anchor point be a
> logical generic grouping point.
> >
> > In the early days of web development, that is exactly how I utilized it:
> >
> > <a href="#gohere">Go there</a>
> >
> >
> > <a id="gohere" name="gohere"/>
> > <h1>This is where I want to be</h1>
> >
> >
> > There is probably a better way to do this, but I would argue that <a> -
> unless it has been re-defined to mean link and not anchor (which is
> extremely possible, I've still to read MUCH of the w3c docs) it would fit.
> >
> > -Nick
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@bell.net>
> wrote:
> > A few points:
> >       • epub uses the epub:type value “pagebreak” to identify the
> elements (the id name isn’t the indicator)
> >       • epub also requires @title for a human-readable value (for
> announcement by AT)
> >       • the use of <a> for pagebreaks isn’t ideal. A page break not a
> link to anywhere and never will be. A span is more typical.
> > I’d also hate to think we need more markers in digital. CFIs, while
> unwieldy to write, at least go in the right direction in getting away from
> reliance on the presence of IDs + empty elements. They can also represent
> ranges better than having to insert two markers, or whatever ugliness that
> takes.
> >
> > ID-based markers are useful in the print/digital lookup scenario noted,
> and they’ll have life until a better/simpler method of identifying
> locations comes along, but they’re still god-awful things.
> >
> > You’d think in a digital world we could pull out/identify/highlight any
> passage of text we want, not be as functionally useless to readers as page
> numbers. But here we are...
> >
> > Matt
> >
> > From: Bill Kasdorf
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 1:32 PM
> > To: Nick Ruffilo ; Dave Cramer
> > Cc: AUDRAIN LUC ; Ivan Herman ; Stein, Ayla ; Thierry Michel ; W3C
> Digital Publishing IG
> > Subject: RE: [dpub identifiers] Please review updated Identifiers TF wiki
> >
> > Precisely! Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> > When people respond by saying, wrt pointing just to the start of the
> print page on which the thing you really mean occurs (the thing the index
> entry means, the thing the cross reference is referencing, etc.), "what the
> heck good is that?", I point out that that is precisely all that those
> things have ever done in print. J They just say "somewhere between this
> point, where page 53 begins, and the next such milestone marker, which says
> where page 54 begins . . . somewhere between those two markers is the thing
> I'm trying to direct your attention to." So using them is regrettably no
> better, but at least no worse, than what they've always done.
> >
> >
> >
> > --Bill K
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Nick Ruffilo [mailto:nickruffilo@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 1:25 PM
> > To: Dave Cramer
> > Cc: AUDRAIN LUC; Ivan Herman; Bill Kasdorf; Stein, Ayla; Thierry Michel;
> W3C Digital Publishing IG
> > Subject: Re: [dpub identifiers] Please review updated Identifiers TF wiki
> >
> >
> >
> > My apologies if this has been asked before, but is there a generic
> "milestone" type ID?  Ultimately that's what a page-number is.  The same
> way a section heading, or chapter is a chunk identifier, a page is ALSO a
> chunk identifier.  The fact that the context is related to a concept
> foreign to screens (or at least, difficult to understand when it comes to
> screens) if you think of it as a "physical_page_number" as opposed to just
> "page_number" the conceptual chunk because significantly clearer and more
> meaningful.
> >
> >
> >
> > If this doesn't make sense, let me know and I'll try to word it elsewise.
> >
> >
> >
> > -Nick
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Dave Cramer <dauwhe@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 12:41 PM, AUDRAIN LUC <LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > In EPUB3 files, HTML content is tagged with empty anchors like :
> > "Ils n¹en veulent pas, ils n¹en <a id="page_182"/>veulent pas, elle lâche
> > dans un soupir en attrapant encore une lettre."
> >
> > This means that a new paper page starts at word « veulent ».
> >
> > In parallel, the EPUB3 nav document contains an ordered list of
> navigation
> > points in a <nav epub:type="page-list »> element :
> > <li>
> >    <a href="chap22.html#page_182">Page 182</a>
> >                </li>
> > Then the label of this paper page 182 is « Page 182 ».
> >
> >
> > In term of worflow, by good practice, we produced a new EPUB file as soon
> > as text corrections have been inserted in the reprint book.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > In EPUB3, there's metadata that should indicate which print edition the
> pagination information is taken from [1]:
> >
> >
> >
> > <dc:source id="src-id">urn:isbn:9780375704024</dc:source>
> >     <meta refines="#src-id" property="identifier-type"
> scheme="onix:codelist5">15</meta>
> > <meta refines="#src-id" property="source-of">pagination</meta>
> >
> >
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> >
> > [1]
> http://www.idpf.org/epub/301/spec/epub-publications.html#sec-opf-dcsource
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > - Nick Ruffilo
> >
> > @NickRuffilo
> >
> > http://Aerbook.com
> >
> > http://ZenOfTechnology.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Nick Ruffilo
> > @NickRuffilo
> > http://Aerbook.com
> > http://ZenOfTechnology.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > - Nick Ruffilo
> > @NickRuffilo
> > http://Aerbook.com
> > http://ZenOfTechnology.com
> >
>
>
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C
> Digital Publishing Activity Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +31-641044153
> ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
- Nick Ruffilo
@NickRuffilo
http://Aerbook.com
http://ZenOfTechnology.com <http://zenoftechnology.com/>