Re: [dpub identifiers] Please review updated Identifiers TF wiki

Matt,

Thanks.  I don't quite understand what the 2nd part means.  Does that mean
an <A> without an HREF is just a "If I knew what the URL was, I'd put a
link here, but I don't?" or is it along the lines of "I would like a link
to be able to point to this specific point in the document."

I know that in practice, using # in a URL, the browser will simply find
anything with that ID and scroll to it, turning any item with a unique
identifier into an anchor of sorts.

-Nick

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 2:28 PM, Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@bell.net> wrote:

>   The name attribute on <a> is deprecated now. To quote from the HTML5
> spec:
>
>
> If the a
> <http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-a-element> element
> has an href <http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#attr-hyperlink-href> attribute,
> then it represents <http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/dom.html#represents> a
> hyperlink <http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#hyperlink> (a hypertext
> anchor) labeled by its contents.
>
> If the a
> <http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/text-level-semantics.html#the-a-element> element
> has no href <http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#attr-hyperlink-href> attribute,
> then the element represents
> <http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/dom.html#represents> a placeholder for where
> a link might otherwise have been placed, if it had been relevant,
> consisting of just the element's contents.
>
>  *From:* Nick Ruffilo <nickruffilo@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 08, 2015 2:25 PM
> *To:* Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@bell.net>
> *Cc:* Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com> ; Dave Cramer
> <dauwhe@gmail.com> ; AUDRAIN LUC <LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr> ; Ivan
> Herman <ivan@w3.org> ; Stein, Ayla <astein@illinois.edu> ; Thierry Michel
> <tmichel@w3.org> ; W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [dpub identifiers] Please review updated Identifiers TF
> wiki
>
>  Isn't the <a> supposed to be an anchor and not a link?  And <a> with a
> href="" is clearly a link, but otherwise, couldn't an anchor point be a
> logical generic grouping point.
>
> In the early days of web development, that is exactly how I utilized it:
>
> <a href="#gohere">Go there</a>
>
>
> <a id="gohere" name="gohere"/>
> <h1>This is where I want to be</h1>
>
>
> There is probably a better way to do this, but I would argue that <a> -
> unless it has been re-defined to mean link and not anchor (which is
> extremely possible, I've still to read MUCH of the w3c docs) it would fit.
>
> -Nick
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@bell.net>
> wrote:
>
>>   A few points:
>>
>>    - epub uses the epub:type value “pagebreak” to identify the elements
>>    (the id name isn’t the indicator)
>>    - epub also requires @title for a human-readable value (for
>>    announcement by AT)
>>    - the use of <a> for pagebreaks isn’t ideal. A page break not a link
>>    to anywhere and never will be. A span is more typical.
>>
>> I’d also hate to think we need more markers in digital. CFIs, while
>> unwieldy to write, at least go in the right direction in getting away from
>> reliance on the presence of IDs + empty elements. They can also represent
>> ranges better than having to insert two markers, or whatever ugliness that
>> takes.
>>
>> ID-based markers are useful in the print/digital lookup scenario noted,
>> and they’ll have life until a better/simpler method of identifying
>> locations comes along, but they’re still god-awful things.
>>
>> You’d think in a digital world we could pull out/identify/highlight any
>> passage of text we want, not be as functionally useless to readers as page
>> numbers. But here we are...
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>  *From:* Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 08, 2015 1:32 PM
>> *To:* Nick Ruffilo <nickruffilo@gmail.com> ; Dave Cramer
>> <dauwhe@gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* AUDRAIN LUC <LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr> ; Ivan Herman
>> <ivan@w3.org> ; Stein, Ayla <astein@illinois.edu> ; Thierry Michel
>> <tmichel@w3.org> ; W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
>> *Subject:* RE: [dpub identifiers] Please review updated Identifiers TF
>> wiki
>>
>>
>> Precisely! Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> When people respond by saying, wrt pointing just to the start of the
>> print page on which the thing you really mean occurs (the thing the index
>> entry means, the thing the cross reference is referencing, etc.), "what the
>> heck good is that?", I point out that that is precisely all that those
>> things have ever done in print. J They just say "somewhere between this
>> point, where page 53 begins, and the next such milestone marker, which says
>> where page 54 begins . . . somewhere between those two markers is the thing
>> I'm trying to direct your attention to." So using them is regrettably no
>> better, but at least no worse, than what they've always done.
>>
>>
>>
>> --Bill K
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Nick Ruffilo [mailto:nickruffilo@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 08, 2015 1:25 PM
>> *To:* Dave Cramer
>> *Cc:* AUDRAIN LUC; Ivan Herman; Bill Kasdorf; Stein, Ayla; Thierry
>> Michel; W3C Digital Publishing IG
>> *Subject:* Re: [dpub identifiers] Please review updated Identifiers TF
>> wiki
>>
>>
>>
>> My apologies if this has been asked before, but is there a generic
>> "milestone" type ID?  Ultimately that's what a page-number is.  The same
>> way a section heading, or chapter is a chunk identifier, a page is ALSO a
>> chunk identifier.  The fact that the context is related to a concept
>> foreign to screens (or at least, difficult to understand when it comes to
>> screens) if you think of it as a "physical_page_number" as opposed to just
>> "page_number" the conceptual chunk because significantly clearer and more
>> meaningful.
>>
>>
>>
>> If this doesn't make sense, let me know and I'll try to word it elsewise.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Dave Cramer <dauwhe@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 12:41 PM, AUDRAIN LUC <LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> In EPUB3 files, HTML content is tagged with empty anchors like :
>> "Ils n¹en veulent pas, ils n¹en <a id="page_182"/>veulent pas, elle lâche
>> dans un soupir en attrapant encore une lettre."
>>
>> This means that a new paper page starts at word « veulent ».
>>
>> In parallel, the EPUB3 nav document contains an ordered list of navigation
>> points in a <nav epub:type="page-list »> element :
>> <li>
>>    <a href="chap22.html#page_182">Page 182</a>
>>                </li>
>> Then the label of this paper page 182 is « Page 182 ».
>>
>>
>> In term of worflow, by good practice, we produced a new EPUB file as soon
>> as text corrections have been inserted in the reprint book.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In EPUB3, there's metadata that should indicate which print edition the
>> pagination information is taken from [1]:
>>
>>
>>
>> <dc:source id="src-id">urn:isbn:9780375704024</dc:source>
>>
>>     <meta refines="#src-id" property="identifier-type" scheme="onix:codelist5">15</meta>
>>
>>  <meta refines="#src-id" property="source-of">pagination</meta>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> [1]
>> http://www.idpf.org/epub/301/spec/epub-publications.html#sec-opf-dcsource
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> - Nick Ruffilo
>>
>> @NickRuffilo
>>
>> http://Aerbook.com
>>
>> http://ZenOfTechnology.com <http://zenoftechnology.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
>  - Nick Ruffilo
> @NickRuffilo
> http://Aerbook.com
> http://ZenOfTechnology.com <http://zenoftechnology.com/>
>
>



-- 
- Nick Ruffilo
@NickRuffilo
http://Aerbook.com
http://ZenOfTechnology.com <http://zenoftechnology.com/>