- From: Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org>
- Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2014 08:37:42 +0100
- To: W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Hi all,
The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
dated 2014-12-08 are now available at
http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html
These public minutes are also linked from the dpub wiki
http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings
Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your convenience.
Best,
Thierry Michel
----------------------------
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
08 Dec 2014
[2]Agenda
[2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Dec/0001.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-irc
Attendees
Present
George Kerscher (George_Kerscher), Deborah Kaplan
(dkaplan3), Charles LaPierre (clapierre), MikeMiller
(MikeMiller), Ivan Herman (Ivan), Tzviya Siegman
(tzviya), Luc Audrain (Luc), Markus Gylling (Markus),
Vladimir Levantovsky (Vlad), Alan Stearns (Stearns),
Bill Kasdorf (Bill_Kasdorf), Thierry Michel (tmichel),
Bert Bos (Bert), Julie Morris (Julie), Frederick Hirsch
(fjh), Ben De Meester (bjdmeest), Avneesh, Singh,
(DAISY), Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Madi Solomon (madi)
Regrets
Peter Kreutzberger, David Stroup, Ayla Stein
Chair
Tzviya Siegman (tzviya)
Scribe
Dave Cramer (dauwhe)
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]longdesc
* [6]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 08 December 2014
<Vlad> Apologies, I have a conflict and will have to disconnect
in 1/2 hour
<scribe> scribenick: dauwhe
tzviya: we have some new people here today
George: I'm president of IDPF and Secretary-General of DAISY
... working on epub issues
Avneesh: work for DAISY
... also work on EPUB
<tzviya> [7]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings
[7] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings
tzviya: review minutes from last week
... any comments?
<tzviya> [8]http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-minutes.html
[8] http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-minutes.html
tzviya: we also had short minutes for the first time
mgylling: we're doing short minutes until further notice?
tzviya: yes. lots of good feedback.
mgylling: Ivan has taken responsibility for short minutes?
ivan: yes
tzviya: if anyone wants to do them, Ivan would graciously
accept :)
... first item is to review list of digital publishing terms to
present to PF
... at TPAC we met with PF
... about presenting a list of terms to put into an ARIA module
... so we can have a structural semantic vocab for DPUB
... Markus and I have worked through EPUB's vocab
<tzviya>
[9]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p
7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/edit#gid=0
[9]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/edit#gid=0
tzviya: the goal is to add to this list as needed
... the definitions in this list will be cleaned up
... sorry... document is not yet public
... [working on making the document public]
<bjdmeest> this is the non-edit link (I think)
[10]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8
p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/pubhtml
[10]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Wvlf5aahrZ5VVu03Dj8p7ne3ae02ALIg8hqTLIWeip4/pubhtml
s/wizzard/wizard/
mgylling: this is a subset of epub structural semantic vocab
tzviya: we also have include/defer column here
... some we might want to remove
... category may or may not be relevant
... we'll need some additional description before presenting to
ARIA
... and we have a few notes about current relationships with
ARIA
... for example, around notes/note
... the existing list has 200 terms, this is less than 40
... next step is to clean up, clarify definitions
... then schedule meeting with PF
... try to get this into module of ARIA
... and, as always, volunteers are welcome
ivan: still digesting
mgylling: for context, terms that have been excluded in this
round
... we expect to append to it in later cycles
... PF wants to set up a more agile process for adding to ARIA
... lots of terms are still in draft
... including edu terms, comic terms, etc
... we elected to wait on those
Bill_Kasdorf: are any of these draft status?
mgylling: I think only two
tzviya: two or three from the testing section
... question and answer
Bill_Kasdorf: none from magazine vocab?
tzviya: no
mgylling: should we talk about staffing of task force?
ivan: will these be used as values of role attribute?
... if I look at "usage" column
<tzviya>
<dc:source>[11]http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/</sourc
e>
[11] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
ivan: do we want to make a restriction on which HTML element
can be used for that specific value?
mgylling: on which element the value is expected to occur?
ivan: allowed
mgylling: we have epub definition of usage, which is
recommended, not required
... we need to ARIA-ify these
... will be put in same framework as existing ARIA roles
... so we'll need to do same things ARIA already does for each
term
ivan: ARIA can define a restriction?
mgylling: yes
... HTML5 may also have restrictions
... right now we're working on the ARIA definitions
... looking for an example now...
tzviya: the glossary terms are a good example
... <dl role="glossary">
... might restrict it to just that or might have <ul
role="glossary">
ivan: I don't know all the possible restrictions PF can set
tzviya: it's not just sending a list to PF, we should have a
task force with regular meetings
... Markus and I will work on this, and we want volunteers to
join us
George: I've joined the PF list and am ready to participate
mgylling: They'll want to know who will chair or co-chair this
task force
... if we could decide this today it would be good
Bill_Kasdorf: within the IG?
mgylling: Joint task force between DPUB and PF
ivan: at some point I did volunteer at TPAC to look at
OWL-specific things
tzviya: I'm happy to help out
mgylling: initially we can propose Markus and Tzviya as
co-chairs
tzviya: and thank you George
Bill_Kasdorf: yes
tzviya: any other questions about the progress of this task
force?
ivan: I want to understand whether we have a plan on the timing
and the road ahead
... where are the bottlenecks?
tzviya: good question
... we were the first big bottleneck
... next phase is setting up task force meetings
... holidays will complicate that
... next bottleneck will be agreeing on definitions
mgylling: hard to predict how much time it will take to bless
and publish this
ivan: I felt that IDPF already has the definitions for these
terms
... aren't they already there?
mgylling: they are our initial proposed definitions
... but as we move into new context there may be an evolution
ivan: we do not start from scratch
tzviya: I'd like to get this to PF this week
ivan: their question will be
... I don't know what you mean by SSV category
tzviya: I would like to get a cleaned-up version of this to PF
this week
<Vlad> sorry, have to disconnect now
tzviya: I'd like to have the task force meetings in December
... want to get it moving this month
... we'll have something to present to PF this week
... we'll at least have a meeting scheduled soon
... but much depends on how PF interprets this
<mgylling>
[12]http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-html-longdesc-20141204/
[12] http://www.w3.org/TR/2014/PR-html-longdesc-20141204/
longdesc
<mgylling> (AC only)
[13]https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/longdesc-PR/
[13] https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/longdesc-PR/
mgylling: here's the AC review link
... we have been reminded that input from the publishing
community is desired
... so how can we produce a review?
... we need to poke all publisher W3C members to do this review
George: I was hoping to clarify in my mind the implications of
this
... clarifying the usage, and then asking other w3c members to
comment
mgylling: in terms of clarifying the usage, can you rephrase as
question? This has been discussed for more than a decade
George: when a long desc is needed, such as "the Diagrammar", a
framework for making images accessible
... when would you use long desc, and the other aspect is SVG,
how do we add enhancements to other elements other than just
the image?
... this is just focused on image
... there are other items that need a description
... is the rec that there be a variety of techniques, depending
on the element? Like canvas...
mgylling: right
... there is an attribute in ARIA 1.1 called described-at,
which takes a URL so you can point outside the doc
... which is a more generic version of longdesc
... longdesc is allowed on IMG and map only
... so you're asking about what is the long-term vision
George: there's the political aspect
... it's been a Herculean effort from them
... just trying to get my head around all this
mgylling: it's safe to say that in PF strategy terms, longdesc
is intended to solve problems in the short term
... while waiting for ARIA 1.1 to me mature
George: the techniques for exposing this attribute, in Firefox
it's a context menu item
... I think the long term goal is good
mgylling: another thing on horizon is annotations
... which can be used for a11y
... with annotations, the pointing direction is reversed
... it's good to have both described-at and annotations
... that's the end point
ivan: I'm a bit bothered by what's happening in terms of
process
... George is asking about long term
... procedurally, at this point the only thing that members can
vote on
... is essentially a yes or no, since this is already a PR
... they may decide it's not to be a REC
... but it is not at this stage that any technical comments
should occur
... but we missed the boat
... If publishers support this, that's a valuable message, as
there has been controversy
George: we supplied formal written comments a couple of years
ago
clapierre: a couple questions
<clapierre>
[14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014A
ug/0028.html
[14]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Aug/0028.html
clapierre: first, here's Apple's formal objection
... if this long description is pointing to a URL, how does
this work offline
<mgylling>
[15]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014O
ct/0099.html
[15]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-admin/2014Oct/0099.html
mgylling: good questions
... having monitored this for a decade, I'm lacking enthusiasm
to start into this again
... it is what it is
... the politics are so involved that technical merit
discussions are moot
... it doesn't solve all problems, but solves some
... but it's not the golden wrench
... it's just one thing in the toolbox
clapierre: ARIA seems like the right approach
... affects SVG, STEM...
... it was rejected for HTML
... will this get into a revision of HTML5 quicker than ARIA?
ivan: not sure how this is done editorially
... it might be an extension
George: the politics here is that if DPUB or a number of
members come out against longdesc
... the public would view this as the publishing industry not
wanting to support a11y
... that would be the appearance of it
... that's the wrong message
... I don't think we could avoid that (mis)perception
... if the group came out against longdesc
ivan: I understand
... I don't want to evade the issue
... but since we're in PR, this IG is not in position to be
pro/con
... this is now in the hands of the individual members
... it's way too late
... it's out of the hands of the groups
tzviya: Let's remind people to review this, but it's not the
place of DPUB to say how to vote
mgylling: so we want to get the publishing industry to vote
... It's a milestone, but it's not the endpoint
... the more important question is what to do after longdesc?
... participation in PF from publishing is low
... maybe we should get more people to work on ARIA 1.1
George: participation in PF and ARIA is going to be important
... also, the implementations of those features and functions
is important
... like in Readium
Bill_Kasdorf: with regard to longdesc, what is the status of
implementation
mgylling: there is an implementation report published with the
provisional rec
... we're poking AC reps...
... how can we be more proactive moving forward, that's a
matter of resource assignment
... so now's a good time for digital publishing to get involved
in ARIA
<mgylling> ack [IPcaller]
avnesh: what happens if review for longdesc is negative?
mgylling: what would we practically do?
... epub 3.0.1 already allows aria described-at
... we can't easily answer the question
... any last questions?
... thanks everyone
all: bye bye bye bye bye
<ivan> trackbot, end telcon
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [16]scribe.perl version
1.140 ([17]CVS log)
$Date: 2014-12-09 07:36:01 $
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[16] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[17] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Scribe.perl diagnostic output
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Inferring Scribes: dauwhe
Default Present: George_Kerscher, dkaplan3, [IPcaller], clapierre, MikeM
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Present: George_Kerscher dkaplan3 [IPcaller] clapierre MikeMiller Ivan +
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rry Bert +1.347.633.aabb Julie fjh Ben_De_Meester Avneesh Singh (DAISY)
WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: Madi, David_Stroup)
Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the lis
t,
such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ pkra, david_stroup
Regrets: pkra david_stroup
Agenda: [19]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014De
c/0001.html
[19]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Dec/0001.html
WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth
Found Date: 08 Dec 2014
Guessing minutes URL: [20]http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html
People with action items:
[20] http://www.w3.org/2014/12/08-dpub-minutes.html
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[21] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
Received on Tuesday, 9 December 2014 07:37:52 UTC