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RE: [metadata] FYI: BIBTEX Update at the LoC

From: Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2013 22:06:26 +0000
To: "Madans, Phil" <Phil.Madans@hbgusa.com>, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
CC: Luc Audrain <LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr>, Tim Clark <tim_clark@harvard.edu>, W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <8c687e03eecb42198ac616e14974fcef@CO2PR06MB572.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>
The reason for the backwards incompatibility is that ONIX 3.0 is completely restructured in a much better, more modular way than 2.1. The right thing to do, imo, going forward, but at the pain (hence the "ouch") of backwards incompatibility.

Among the big benefits of 3.0, esp. relevant to this IG, are that it provides much richer features for digital products than 2.1.

The reason adoption is lagging in the U.S. is that the U.S. more thoroughly adopted 2.1, and now all the big publishers' infrastructures are engineered for 2.1. Unfortunately for now they "work fine" ;-) (begging the definition of "fine"). China went straight to 3.0.

3.0 is WAY better. Most folks recognize this; it's the transition that's the problem.

And don't get me going on ISBN usage. (Phil will relate to that--he chairs the ID committee for BISG and he is _all over_ these issues!)

--Bill K

-----Original Message-----
From: Madans, Phil [mailto:Phil.Madans@hbgusa.com] 
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 11:42 AM
To: Ivan Herman
Cc: Luc Audrain; Tim Clark; W3C Digital Publishing IG
Subject: RE: [metadata] FYI: BIBTEX Update at the LoC

Ouch is the nicest way I've heard it described...

------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Madans | Director, Publishing Standards and Practices | Hachette Book Group | 237 Park Avenue NY 10017 |212-364-1415 | phil.madans@hbgusa.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Ivan Herman [mailto:ivan@w3.org]
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 11:38 AM
To: Madans, Phil
Cc: Luc Audrain; Tim Clark; W3C Digital Publishing IG
Subject: Re: [metadata] FYI: BIBTEX Update at the LoC

Thanks Phil. I knew about the fact that 3.0 is new and adoption is lacking, I did not realize that were backward incompatibility issues (ouch...).

Cheers

Ivan

On 05 Dec 2013, at 17:35 , Madans, Phil <Phil.Madans@hbgusa.com> wrote:

> One thing you must always keep in mind when discussing ONIX is that there are two version of ONIX in use today in the book industry: ONIX 2.1 and ONIX 3.0. The newer version, 3.0, has been in production for a few years now, but transition from 2.1 has been very slow. There has been adoption in some markets and usage is growing slowly, but, for instance, it is almost non-existent in the U.S. The main issue is that 3.0 is not backward compatible with 2.1, which entails a significant development effort and the need to maintain support for both version--for both senders and recipients. It is an issue of constant debate in BISG here in the U.S. Support for 2.1 is set to expire at the end of 2014, but full industry adoption will certainly take many more years.
>
> I bring this up not because I think this avenue shouldn't be explored, but to make all aware of a possible obstacle.
>
> Phil
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Phil Madans | Director, Publishing Standards and Practices | Hachette 
> Book Group | 237 Park Avenue NY 10017 |212-364-1415 | 
> phil.madans@hbgusa.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ivan Herman [mailto:ivan@w3.org]
> Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 9:29 AM
> To: Luc Audrain
> Cc: Tim Clark; W3C Digital Publishing IG
> Subject: Re: [metadata] FYI: BIBTEX Update at the LoC
>
>
> On 05 Dec 2013, at 15:13 , AUDRAIN LUC <LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr> wrote:
>
>> Ivan,
>>
>> There has been at least some discussions at EDItEUR about a RDF version of ONIX. Obviously, the right person to consult is Graham Bell (graham@editeur.org).
>
> ... and I will see him next week!
>
>> I think that it can be an effort to move to this, but in this W3C initiative for publishing, it can give it a push.
>>
>
> let us see...
>
> Ivan
>
>> Best,
>> Luc
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Ivan Herman [mailto:ivan@w3.org] Envoyé : jeudi 5 décembre 2013
>> 14:54 À : AUDRAIN LUC Cc : Tim Clark; W3C Digital Publishing IG Objet
>> : Re: [metadata] FYI: BIBTEX Update at the LoC
>>
>> So... afaik there has been a work for an RDF version of ONIX. I will actually visit EDItEUR in week, and I will try to find out more. I have the impression that a canonical representation of ONIX in RDF might go a long way binding the ONIX metadata with whatever metadata libraries or archives are using (whether that is BIBFRAME or something else).
>>
>> But I admittingly do not have a complete overview of the metadata issues around publishing...
>>
>> Ivan
>>
>> On 05 Dec 2013, at 14:49 , AUDRAIN LUC <LAUDRAIN@hachette-livre.fr> wrote:
>>
>>> As book publishers, we use ONIX for Books metadata to distribute on all the supply chain, physical and digital.
>>> It covers almost all of our needs or we work  at EDItEUR to improve this schema.
>>>
>>> All of what Eric Miller says is relevant to our present concerns, noticeably around networking Works and Contributors.
>>> We find here suitable international standards as ISNI for Authors, but not yet for Works as ISTC failed.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Luc AUDRAIN
>>> Hachette Livre, Head of Digitalization
>>>
>>> De : Tim Clark [mailto:tim_clark@harvard.edu] Envoyé : jeudi 5 
>>> décembre 2013 14:09 À : Ivan Herman Cc : W3C Digital Publishing IG 
>>> Objet : Re: [metadata] FYI: BIBTEX Update at the LoC
>>>
>>> Agree this effort  is entirely and importantly relevant, and there are others such as CiTO the citation ontology,  as well.  I actually don't see any particular separation - there is a minimum an intersection.
>>>
>>> If you look at scientific journal publishing, what is the difference between bibliographic info at publisher's website and at for example, NLM (National Library of Medicine)?
>>>
>>> NLM has in addition to the "pure" bibliographic metadata, a lot of search-oriented stuff like MeSH terms; the abstracts; and interesting sort of "hidden" metadata like "most similar to what other publications".
>>>
>>> No doubt publishers have a lot of process-oriented metadata, and there is likely other stuff I know nothing about.  But at least there is an important intersection set between libraries and publishers. Front matter of books always have ISBN, LOC or Brit Lib catalog number, etc. and you can expand out on common stuff from there.
>>>
>>> Tim Clark
>>>
>>> Director, Biomedical Informatics Core, Massachusetts General 
>>> Hospital Instructor in Neurology, Harvard Medical School
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 5, 2013, at 7:44 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I am not sure this is directly relevant to the Metadata Task Force discussion, but it may be of interest nevertheless:
>>>
>>> http://www.loc.gov/bibframe/media/updateforum-nov22-2013.html
>>>
>>> contains a fairly long video on LoC's BIBTEX initiative. Yes, it is library metadata, not publishers' metadata, but I guess one of the challenges in general is how to bring those together.
>>>
>>> Eric Miller, who is one of the developers (and, actually, who led the Semantic Web Activity at W3C until 2007) makes a very high level case for the usage of a BIBTEX-like structure (starting around 49:00 in the video). His talk lacks technical details for my taste, but I guess that was the nature of the audience...
>>>
>>> Ivan
>>>
>>> ----
>>> Ivan Herman, W3C
>>> Digital Publishing Activity Lead
>>> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
>>> mobile: +31-641044153
>>> GPG: 0x343F1A3D
>>> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> ----
>> Ivan Herman, W3C
>> Digital Publishing Activity Lead
>> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
>> mobile: +31-641044153
>> GPG: 0x343F1A3D
>> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C
> Digital Publishing Activity Lead
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +31-641044153
> GPG: 0x343F1A3D
> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf
>
>
>
>
>
>
> This may contain confidential material. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender, delete immediately, and understand that no disclosure or reliance on the information herein is permitted. Hachette Book Group may monitor email to and from our network.


----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
GPG: 0x343F1A3D
FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf






This may contain confidential material. If you are not an intended recipient, please notify the sender, delete immediately, and understand that no disclosure or reliance on the information herein is permitted. Hachette Book Group may monitor email to and from our network.
Received on Thursday, 5 December 2013 22:07:20 UTC

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