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Draft Minutes Teleconference 6 October 2016

From: Frederick Hirsch <w3c@fjhirsch.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2016 11:11:33 -0400
Message-Id: <2AF0B40F-50E9-45B7-B898-DF5263BCC3FD@fjhirsch.com>
To: W3C Device APIs WG <public-device-apis@w3.org>
Attached are draft minutes from today's Devices and Sensors Teleconference (6 October 2016)

Please send any corrections to the  mail list before the next meeting [1]

Thanks Dom for scribing, everyone for your participation.

regards, Frederick

Frederick Hirsch
Chair, W3C Devices and Sensors WG (DAS)


[1] https://www.w3.org/2009/dap/minutes.html#upcoming-teleconferences


# Device and Sensors Working Group Teleconference

## 06 Oct 2016


See also: [IRC log][4]

## Attendees


    Frederick_Hirsch, Riju_Bhaumik, Alex_Shalamov, Mikhail_Pozdnyakov,
Anssi_Kostiainen, riju, alexander, Alexander_Shalamov, Tobie_Langel






## Contents

  * [Topics][5]

    1. [Welcome, scribe selection, agenda review, announcements][6]

    2. [Minutes approval][7]

    3. [WebIDL breakout report][8]

    4. [Vibration][9]

    5. [Generic Sensor][10]

    6. [Concrete sensors][11]

    7. [Battery][12]

    8. [Ambient Light][13]

    9. [proximity][14]

    10. [Accelerometer, Gyroscope, Magnetometer][15]

    11. [Wake Lock][16]

    12. [Coordination with Other Groups][17]

    13. [TPAC follow up][18]

    14. [Other Business][19]

    15. [Adjourn][20]

  * [Summary of Action Items][21]

  * [Summary of Resolutions][22]

* * *

<scribe> ScribeNick: dom

### Welcome, scribe selection, agenda review, announcements

<fjh> Updated minutes page, [https://www.w3.org/2009/dap/minutes.html][23]

<fjh> add to agenda approval of 25 Aug minutes

<scribe> Agenda: [https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-

<fjh> Note - TPAC specific item at end of agenda

Frederick: TPAC seems to have been great

... agenda includes minutes approval, updates on WebIDL if possible, Vibration

... Generic Sensor - I tried to pull out the various topics that were worth

... Concrete sensors - maybe review the naming issue

... Battery - implementation status

... *Sensor status check

... groups coordination - follow up to TPAC discussions

... anything else that we need to talk about today?

Anssi: we can give an update on our priorities for sensors, both in terms of
implementations and specs

### Minutes approval

<fjh> proposed RESOLUTION: Approve 8 Sept Minutes,

**RESOLUTION: Approve 8 Sept Minutes, [https://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-dap-

<fjh> Approve F2F minutes from TPAC F2F, 19-20 Sept 2016

<fjh> [https://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-dap-minutes.html][25]

<fjh> [https://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-dap-minutes.html][26]

<fjh> proposed RESOLUTION: Minutes from 19-20 Sept 2016 F2F are approved

**RESOLUTION: Minutes from 19-20 Sept 2016 F2F are approved

<fjh> Thanks to Anssi for chairing.

Frederick: Thanks Anssi for chairing that meeting!

### WebIDL breakout report

<fjh> [https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2016/SessionIdeas#WebIDL_Future_Work][27]

Anssi: this was about soliciting feedback on new features that should be baked
into WebIDL

... there were minutes taken that I could find out

Frederick: any direct impact on our group?

Anssi: Tobie will also be editing the WebIDL spec now


Anssi: if we need some WebIDL adjustment, it will just be easier :)

<anssik> [https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/webidl][28]

<dom_scribe> [Meeting notes for WebIDL breakout][28]

Anssi: nothing specific that concerns us at the moment; the main message is
that WebIDL is now evolving

Frederick: Level 1 got published, Level 2 started right

### Vibration

<fjh> PER [https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/PER-vibration-20160818/][29]

<fjh> comments until 18 Sept. Next step to REC?

Frederick: the comment period for the Vibration PER has finished

<fjh> [https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-

Frederick: we received comments from APA that Dom replied to indicating we
can't do normative changes at this stage

<fjh> dom: going to REC, have started process, waiting director decision

<fjh> dom: need to formally handle APA WG comment

<fjh> dom: especially if we add recommendation in next stage of spec

dom: we probably should file the issue in our repo with a v2 label

<scribe> **ACTION:** Anssi to file APA's comment as a GH issue on the
vibration repo [recorded in [http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-dap-

<trackbot> Created ACTION-775 - File apa's comment as a gh issue on the
vibration repo [on Anssi Kostiainen - due 2016-10-13].

ACTION-775: mark it as v2

<trackbot> Notes added to ACTION-775 File apa's comment as a gh issue on the
vibration repo.

<scribe> **ACTION:** Frederick to send formal answer to APA WG comment
[recorded in [http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-dap-minutes.html#action02]][32]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-776 - Send formal answer to apa wg comment [on
Frederick Hirsch - due 2016-10-13].

<fjh> I will formally respond with link to issue and noting this is deferred
to v.next

### Generic Sensor

<fjh> Summary of long term vs short term issues/levels

<fjh> Review next steps/plans for major issues and long term vs short term

<fjh> - relationship to workers

<fjh> - permissions (including workers)

<fjh> - performance & scaling with # of sensors

Frederick: the discussions at the F2F meeting seem to have been good

<fjh> - remote sensors

<fjh> summary status of moving features from Level 2 to level 1

<fjh> remaining open issues?

Frederick: there is this discussion on short / long term evolutions, how to
put that into levels

... it wasn't entirely clear from the minutes which are which

Tobie: we had WIFI issues which prevented us from updating GH issues live

... I have a good picture of what needs to be done for v1

... I'll clean this all up and make it more palatable before the next call

Frederick: so - for workers?

Tobie: that's pretty much the only one we don't have a strong decision for

... It was brought up in the TAG review by Alex for performance considerations

... Kenneth has been arguing for Worklets rather than Workers

... We assigned an action item to figure out in more depth Alex' concerns

... it's pretty much the only req that is unclear for v1/v2

... It also depends on how v1 ties with concrete sensors (it matters for some,
not for others)

<fjh> Tobie notes ambient light is a special case, with fewer performance

<fjh> so it can come first

Tobie: getting the performance story is critical to get this shipped in

<fjh> maybe all motion sensors

Frederick: re permissions - what's the story?

Tobie: solving permissions is critical

... there is also the question on how to hook with the permissions spec

... I took an action item in the WebAppSec to make a PR for what we need,
which I think is likely to be accepted

<fjh> is Maryam_Mehrnezhad offering to help with security section of spec?

Tobie: we also had discussions on privacy with maryam, a security researcher,
and she was keen on helping with the privacy section of the specs

... we need both generic guidelines and sensor specific ones

Frederick: so, for permissions, we need to register names, but won't need to
rearchitect the permission spec

Tobie: there was a question on whether to target low or high level names for

... we've converged towards using low level names, and let UA deal with how to
present the requests to the user

Frederick: this resolves the question of having confusing granularity of
permissions, right?

Tobie: right

Frederick: remote sensors is deferred?

Tobie: right

Frederick: there was discussions of moving back quite a bit of stuff from
level 2 to level 1

Tobie: what we did was work through the level 1, level 2, future work based on
implementors feedback

... what's in github right now should be mostly the correct outcome of our

... 80% of the open issues just need to be folded into the spec

... once they are closed, it will get much clearer

### Concrete sensors

Frederick: there were discussions on spec naming

... I've wondered if we should include "concrete sensor" somewhere in the

... anything else that spans across multiple specs beyond naming?

<fjh> consistent spec naming (include 'concrete sensor'?)

Tobie: I think it was just naming (with the rest covered by the generic sensor

### Battery

Frederick: what's the status?

<fjh> Status re implementations

<fjh> [https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/CR-battery-status-20160707/][33]

<anssik> [https://github.com/w3c/battery/issues/5][34]

<fjh> this is blocking issue

<anssik> [https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-

Anssi: mozilla had raised a concern back in June

... of possible misuse by some services, and mozilla might consider unship

... since then, we haven't seen concrete proposals, nor have we heard back

<anssik> [http://caniuse.com/#search=battery][36]

Anssi: my suggestion is that we should document the privacy concerns and ship
the spec

... it's already shipping in browsers in any case

... I haven't heard suggestions for normative improvements, and the spec gives
already a lot of freedom to UA vendors to make their implementation privacy-

Frederick: I think that the API is well in-line with privacy BP

... this sounds like a good approach

<fjh> **ACTION:** anssik to edit Battery to document privacy concerns related
to issue 5 [recorded in [http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-dap-

<trackbot> Created ACTION-777 - Edit battery to document privacy concerns
related to issue 5 [on Anssi Kostiainen - due 2016-10-13].

<fjh> note, a pull request would be welcome

<fjh> I might be able to help here

<fjh> then next step would be PR transition request

### Ambient Light

<fjh> next steps

<fjh> [https://www.w3.org/TR/ambient-light/][38]

Anssi: we are looking to shipping this by the end of this year - it would the
first one to ship

Frederick: are we going to get another implementation of that API?

Anssi: do you want us to get one pre-CR?

Frederick: no, was just wondering

Dom: I was thinking this would move to CR at the same time as Generic Sensor
(although they don't have to)

Tobie: that makes sense to me too

Frederick: to me too

<fjh> I think CR would be a good tool to generate interest and implementation

Tobie: we should aim at making our docs CR-ready around the same time as the
implementation ships

Frederick: the goal of CR is to get interest and involvement from implementors

... I think we have consensus that the two specs should go together to CR

... I would like to see it this year

Anssi: me too

Tobie: let's have this as our goal then

Anssi: current focus is on getting ambient light out of the door

### proximity

Anssi: main issue here is whether to split the low / high level features

... (boolean vs distance)

... but probably not worth discussing today

<fjh> [https://www.w3.org/TR/proximity/][39]

<anssik> [https://github.com/w3c/proximity/issues/4][40]

### Accelerometer, Gyroscope, Magnetometer

<fjh> [https://www.w3.org/TR/accelerometer/][41]

<fjh> [https://www.w3.org/TR/gyroscope/][42]

<fjh> [https://www.w3.org/TR/magnetometer/][43]

Anssi: there was some renaming of interfaces and properties

... they are experimentally implemented as well

... these ones have a strong performance component

<fjh> goal is to CR on generic sensor & ambient light this year, others follow

Tobie: I've been thinking of folding all these motion sensors into a single

... it would provide the low level as well as high level sensors that
developers would like want to use in most common cases

... that's my mid-term plan for this

mikhail: so you'd like to join them into a motion sensor spec?

tobie: I would keep the API as is, but put them together in a single spec

... all motion sensors rely on these 3 low level sensors

... fused in different ways

... this would also allow to address high level sensors on platforms that
don't have e.g. a gyroscope

... I'm not suggesting a generic motion sensor

<fjh> rationale is not just spec packaging but need to account for fusion and
combined use of the lower level sensors

<fjh> is that right?

Tobie: having them into a single spec makes sense e.g. from a security /
privacy perspective

... it would have high-level sensors such as gravity, device orientation

... it will likely be a big spec

... the spec would have at the top the 3 low level APIs (gyroscope,
magnetometer, accelerometer), and then the derived high level APIs
(orientation, gravity, etc)

<fjh> tobie notes some security concerns will relate to the combination of
lower level APIs

mikhail: dev would still be able to use low and high level, right?

tobie: yes - they may come with different permissions

... but having it all together in a single spec will help make it more

riju: but won't privacy & security moved up to generic sensor?

tobie: everything that's common should move to generic

... but there are specificities that need to appear in concrete sensors

... e.g. security concerns specific to high frequency sensors such as key
logging don't belong in generic sensor

... that's my current thinking - nothing set in stone

### Wake Lock

Frederick: let's skip

### Coordination with Other Groups

<fjh> incubating a generic-sensor based geo API (noted during F2F) - next

Frederick: so there was this plan to incubate a geo location API as generic

Anssi: no high priority, but Giri was happy for us to incubate something

... plan is to do it in the WICG

... geo requires some of the v2 features (e.g. one-shot request)

<fjh> coordinate with Web of Things CG/IG, review security/privacy practices?

Frederick: what was the outcome of the discussions with WoT IG?

... was that mostly a shared awareness discussion?

Anssi: yes - no specific action out of this

... we also had a TAG member (Hadley) attending during the first day

### TPAC follow up

Anssi: great wine and food!

... no wine for lunch as in France though

... Next one is in the San Francisco Airport >:)

... thanks riju, mikhail, alex, tobie for joining

<fjh> Updated minutes page, [https://www.w3.org/2009/dap/minutes.html][23]

<dom_scribe> [DAS teleconferences calendar][44]

### Other Business

<fjh> none

### Adjourn

## Summary of Action Items

**[NEW]** **ACTION:** Anssi to file APA's comment as a GH issue on the
vibration repo [recorded in [http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-dap-

**[NEW]** **ACTION:** anssik to edit Battery to document privacy concerns
related to issue 5 [recorded in [http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-dap-

**[NEW]** **ACTION:** Frederick to send formal answer to APA WG comment
[recorded in [http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-dap-minutes.html#action02][47]]

## Summary of Resolutions

  1. [Approve 8 Sept Minutes, https://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-dap-

  2. [Minutes from 19-20 Sept 2016 F2F are approved
https://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-dap-minutes.html https://www.w3.org/2016/09/20

[End of minutes]

* * *

Minutes formatted by David Booth's [scribe.perl][50] version 1.144 ([CVS

$Date: 2015/11/17 08:39:34 $

   [1]: https://www.w3.org/Icons/w3c_home

   [2]: http://www.w3.org/

   [3]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-

   [4]: http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-dap-irc

   [5]: #agenda

   [6]: #item01

   [7]: #item02

   [8]: #item03

   [9]: #item04

   [10]: #item05

   [11]: #item06

   [12]: #item07

   [13]: #item08

   [14]: #item09

   [15]: #item10

   [16]: #item11

   [17]: #item12

   [18]: #item13

   [19]: #item14

   [20]: #item15

   [21]: #ActionSummary

   [22]: #ResolutionSummary

   [23]: https://www.w3.org/2009/dap/minutes.html

   [24]: https://www.w3.org/2016/09/08-dap-minutes.html

   [25]: https://www.w3.org/2016/09/19-dap-minutes.html

   [26]: https://www.w3.org/2016/09/20-dap-minutes.html

   [27]: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2016/SessionIdeas#WebIDL_Future_Work

   [28]: https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/webidl

   [29]: https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/PER-vibration-20160818/

   [30]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-

   [31]: http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-dap-minutes.html#action01]

   [32]: http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-dap-minutes.html#action02]

   [33]: https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/CR-battery-status-20160707/

   [34]: https://github.com/w3c/battery/issues/5

   [35]: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-device-

   [36]: http://caniuse.com/#search=battery

   [37]: http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-dap-minutes.html#action03]

   [38]: https://www.w3.org/TR/ambient-light/

   [39]: https://www.w3.org/TR/proximity/

   [40]: https://github.com/w3c/proximity/issues/4

   [41]: https://www.w3.org/TR/accelerometer/

   [42]: https://www.w3.org/TR/gyroscope/

   [43]: https://www.w3.org/TR/magnetometer/

   [44]: https://www.w3.org/2009/dap/teleconferences.ics

   [45]: http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-dap-minutes.html#action01

   [46]: http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-dap-minutes.html#action03

   [47]: http://www.w3.org/2016/10/06-dap-minutes.html#action02

   [48]: #resolution01

   [49]: #resolution02

   [50]: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm

   [51]: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

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