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Re: TPAC meeting minutes 1 NOV 2011, annotated with links

From: ya knygar <knygar@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 04:00:38 +0000
Message-ID: <CAJVWO9YiqA41Cvr2cp_6Y4chJtf91t+fdWK15XyfdQ8=4CtDDw@mail.gmail.com>
To: public-declarative3d@w3.org
Cc: AR CG <public-ar@w3.org>, 전종홍 <hollobit@etri.re.kr>, roBman@mob-labs.com, damon.oehlman@gmail.com, brutzman@nps.edu
> 2.  We asked about the W3C AR community group.  There was no meeting
> for this group at TPAC, and the mailing list has been silent for
> about 2 months.  Not sure if they are still active.

> http://www.w3.org/community/ar/

> no wiki page found

Hi Don Kurtzman, excuse me for the late reply, dunno for other Chairs,
i am on vacation now ..
Anyway, i take the responsibility to answer:

We are more like liaison CG now, that works as a place with bridges
for the people which are interested in W3C platform and Open AR Web
Platform - in general.

For the Wiki
- personally - i was waiting (as been promised by W3C team) for
WYSIWYG Wiki to work with,
I have asked again today, i strongly prefer the visual approach for CG
Wiki's, so i, personally, prefer to wait.

Without a doubt there are many related to W3C AR platform -- grown to
the moment -- topics - to be filled into that AR CG Wiki.
Many was discussed on AR Standards and POI WG lists recently, much of
valuable suggestions one could gain from the variety of AR
communities, from Rob Manson's (one of the AR CG Chairs) work for
WebRTC etc. I think - many - i haven't seen at all but they are there,
somewhere, waiting to be formed into some AR Web Landscape.

At start of the AR CG i have asked if Jonathan Jeon (AR CG Chair) to
transfer one page from POI that i felt like was right for the AR CG,
that is - http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/AR_Landscape/Draft

So - that is the format that i suspect for that Wiki -- the gathering
and observation place for all the related to the Networking AR.
What do you think?

I think - all our Chairs and Participants have much to add into that
Wiki and one of the reasons for the emptiness of the AR CG's Wiki is
in that all - related to the W3C AR platform was so fast moving (or
maybe a rapidly moving target, at least) lately - so all were too busy
to catch it properly in one that place.

I have noticed the
http://www.web3d.org/realtime-3d/augmented-reality-ar page and i was
really glad that somebody has started working towards documenting the
(i hope, am i right?) W3C AR platform.

As i said i'm on vacation so can help only barely in that, also i need to admire
- not all AR CG Chairs was active in developing the community,

in addition - to activate the CG a bit more -
i have suggested it as a place for some part of ARML to W3C connection
afford in - "[AR Standards Discussion] ARML Standards Working Group
being formed through OGC (available for comment)" discussion but - not
a much interest from that party.

Well, i have happily invited Dec3D CG already - to join that W3C AR CG

For me that means - the any kind of participation and use of that W3C
CG place is Welcome, especially by all the current lazy Chairs (excuse
my sense of humor, i'm joking ofc. i can say for sure for all the
current Chairs that they are working towards W3C AR platform, even if
not so publicly)

so @Don Kurtzman
i have noticed you as you joined the group ofc.
i was very glad that you and other Web3D people were interested
as was said on AR CG lists - i proposed that current Chairs
would regulate the chairing as they see it and take the personal
responsibility for people they invite..
and i don't want to take all that responsibility alone.

However i don't know if other current AR CG Chairs aren't in a deeper
vacation than even i, so
as I have took responsibility for all the current chairs
i'm taking it in proposing You - as the Chair of that CG.. as you have
shown at least some interest in that Community Group and as for the
former case -- i officially suppose you as a man, working for Open W3C
Web AR Platform.

Any Chair could involve more chairs and, if i understood correctly,
dismiss them along with all the other possible privileges.

So - all that power is now yours as well, if you know any or all
participants that might
benefit from being in Chair of W3C AR CG and think/want to invite them
-- please make it all as you want, how you want. I guess - it is a
kind of meritocracy there. But, note, you are on the top of the Chair
list! (oh, my humor)

Taking chance -  i am suggesting to schedule the self-clean-up of(off)
Chairs list so there would be only interested in working for that
particular community to form the active, pro-W3C group of communities
at least from that - stated in description.

Currently i could tell only about Damon Oehlman (developer of W3C AR
related - http://www.tile5.org/ ) - that i have received the
confirmation of his business and that, in my eyes, excuses the absence
of his activity for W3C AR CG during these months.

I don't know what the benefits it give except responsibility of
chairing, to be honest :)

If you don't want that responsibility please do as you will for the
better of that AR CG.

I hope that i helped a bit to understand the current Chairs positions
on that W3C AR CG place  and i hope all the interested in W3C AR
platform (from all the sides, from Web3D side) would help to develop
and use it for the obvious benefit of all the interested in W3C AR.

As I'v already said on other lists, personally - i am interested and
active in the http://piratepad.net/901jHwuUiF related work for that
kind of projects to liaison with W3C AR CG and as i'm the AR CG Chair
-- my work is to push (move, kick, beg, etc.) people into the W3C
networking standards space instead of currently popular developing of
some walled(or wallet:) nets.
(sadly the main OpenAR-Call pad is went down recently so don't expect
much goods on that link ATM),

along with all the stated in the W3C AR CG description.

Best regards,
Take care,

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 3:48 PM, Vincent Hardy <vincent.hardy@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Kristian, (please forward to public-declarative3d@w3.org if needed since I am not a member yet)
> Thanks for adding me to the loop.
> One thing I wanted to bring your attention to is the 'transform-style' property in the CSS 3D transform spec:
> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-3d-transforms/#transform-style-property
> Kind regards,
> Vincent
> On Nov 2, 2011, at 6:54 AM, Kristian Sons wrote:
>> [added Vincent and Neil in CC]
>> Thanks Don for taking the minutes of our CG meeting yesterday.
>> Let me go further in detail about the discussion we had with Vincent:
>> Vincent raised the question, why not to transform the HTML rendering
>> from discreet layering to a real spatial rendering. We had this
>> discussion during Web3D 2009 in Darmstadt, but gave up this idea quickly
>> because it seemed to far away from anything doable in mid-term.
>> But with the transformation of compositing from software to GPU,
>> performing a orthogonal projection of the layers in 3D space, the idea
>> appears no longer that bizarre.
>> I don't want to say: Let's force this evolution. It's hard enough for us
>> to find (browser vendor) friends with the idea to include a 3D rendering
>> engine into the Browser :) But this silent evolution might play into our
>> hands as the HTML rendering engine includes more and more 3D techniques.
>> Just imagine what a real depth system could bring:
>> - 3D Objects could cast shadows on a web page (or shadows between layers)
>> - Objects could go through a web page
>> - A real lighting system also for 2D
>> - Depth of field
>> The Tilt project goes a little in this direction. Still discreet
>> one-per-object depths, but it's easy to imagine to break that.
>> Sure, there are many problems to be solved, especially perspective
>> projection will not help reading text.
>> Coming back from these visions, we also had some very concrete
>> discussions. Vincent told us about efforts to merge the CSS 3D
>> transforms and transformations in SVG which will also influence the used
>> Base Types (CSSMatrix, SVGMatrix). Vicent said it would be nice if we
>> participate and bring in our knowledge and requirements.
>> This seems to be a promising start to coordinate our efforts with
>> efforts in current W3C WGs.
>> Best regards,
>>   Kristian
>> Am 01.11.2011 23:38, schrieb Don Brutzman:
>>> added links, now that networking is available
>>> On 11/1/2011 1:52 PM, Don Brutzman wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>> 2.  We asked about the W3C AR community group.  There was no meeting
>>>> for this group at TPAC, and the mailing list has been silent for
>>>> about 2 months.  Not sure if they are still active.
>>> http://www.w3.org/community/ar/
>>> no wiki page found
>>>> Discussion question:  shouldn't this group have an AR use case?
>>>> We all agreed this was valuable to express as part of Declarative 3D.
>>>> We can distill our use cases from descriptions available on that site,
>>> none found
>>>> from the recent AR Standards Group meeting, from the new ISO SC24
>>>> working group 9, and from the X3D AR working group.
>>> X3D AR working group:
>>> http://www.web3d.org/realtime-3d/augmented-reality-ar
>>> ISO JTC 1/SC 24
>>> http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_technical_committee?commid=45252
>>> slideset
>>> http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/%5BKim%5DISO_SC24_Status-Slides.pdf
>>>> Anita gave us a summary report of the just-completed AR Standards Group
>>>> 2-day meeting, 15 people attended.  We discussed various standards
>>>> alignment possibilities.
>>> http://www.perey.com/ARStandards/
>>>> 3.  Process suggestion:  declarative 3d community group teleconference
>>>> efforts probably ought to start using tools available to all W3C
>>>> working groups:
>>>> - IRC chat, scribing, and web logging for meeting minutes
>>> Details
>>> http://www.w3.org/Project/IRC/
>>> irc://irc.w3.org:6665/#declarative3d
>>> or
>>> http://irc.w3.org/#declarative3d
>>>> - Action items list and issues list
>>>> 4.  Discussed agenda for Wednesday afternoon breakout session.  Reviewed
>>>> and discussed the Declarative 3D Community Group slideset in complete
>>>> detail.  Kristian and Johannes presented a large and quite-impressive
>>>> series of demos.
>>> http://www.xml3d.org
>>> http://www.x3dom.org
>>>> Considered current issues and past lessons learned
>>>> in other W3C standards.
>>> Recommended reading:  Tim Berners-Lee, _Weaving the Web_
>>> http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/Weaving/Overview.html
>>>> 5.  Vincent provided a short summary of SVG filter effects as a way
>>>> to predictably offer underlying shader capabilities to SVG authors.
>>>> We talked at length about the effects work going on in CSS, he gave
>>>> a demo showing lots of impressive capabilities, and we discussed
>>>> some CSS/shader technical challenges where a 3D approach can help.
>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/filters.html
>>> He also mentioned CSS Regions and CSS Exclusions:
>>> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-regions
>>> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-exclusions
>>>> 6.  Neil discussed rationale for a 3D transmission format.  At some
>>>> point, 3D assets need to go across the network and it might be a
>>>> valuable addition to ecosystem to have a format for 3D analagous
>>>> to JPEG for imagery, MP3 for audio, H264/MPEG4 for video, etc.
>>>> Alternative is that browsers have to do decoding in javascript
>>>> or content doesn't work.  Seems like an obvious hole.  Could do
>>>> an inventory of available work, discuss possibilities with MPEG etc.
>>>> Progressive streaming and compression would be primary benefits.
>>>> Interesting discussion (once again).
>>> A future teleconference will be setup to discuss further
>>> for those who are interested.
>>>> ======================================
>>>> Here are things we didn't discuss yet.
>>>> 7.  Requests for W3C
>>>> - (Need to confirm) community group support for IRC chat, trackers
>>> confirmed available, links above
>>>> - Occasional team review, feedback regarding goals and activities
>>>> 8.  Areas where declarative 3D is very different from other media,
>>>> languages and web standards.  Rationale: establishing W3C Recommendation
>>>> for Declarative 3D should add new capabilities to the Web.  Undesired
>>>> alternative:  W3C members unconvinced that new work adds value.
>>>> - User-driven navigation in and around 3D models
>>>> - User-driven interaction:  selection, picking, collision detection
>>>> - Reuse and composition of individual 3D models into larger worlds
>>>> - Full integration of 3D models with HTML5 content by Web authors,
>>>>     allowing 2-way exchange of events via DOM
>>>> - Augmented Reality (AR) with user control of 3D display space,
>>>>     not simply 2D overlays on top of video feed
>>>> - Embeddable physics
>>>> -
>>>> -
>>>> - no doubt several others...
>>>> 9.  We need to characterize shared relationships (+) and distinguishing
>>>> differences (-) between Declarative 3D goals and other W3C technologies.
>>>> + integratable with HTML, as external or embedded page object
>>>> - different than SVG, native 3D representations essential, though many
>>>>     lessons of SVG design are relevant
>>>> - different than canvas: not low-level shader programming
>>>> + DOM representation central to capture 3D scene graph.  Holding data
>>>>     structures in real time is now satisfactory with high-performance
>>>>     DOM implementations.
>>>> + DOM event model is dissimilar to typical event-passing paradigm of
>>>>     most 3D scene graphs, but can be aligned
>>>> + HTML5 interaction model needs to be utilized, e.g. HTML DOM level 2
>>>>     mouse events
>>>> + Significant level of CSS capabilities can be utilized, possibly
>>>>     align HTML colors with 3D materials
>>>> - Need consistent accessibility so that navigation and usability is
>>>>     intuitive/predictable (rather than "lost is space")
>>>> Additional potential relationships with W3C Recommendations:
>>>> + Most base types supported in XML Schema - add n-tuple arrays?
>>>> ? Multimedia synchronization - other requirements beyond HTML5?
>>>> ? XPath and XSLT support needed, possible?
>>>> ? MathML support for equations?
>>>> ? SVG, movie, canvas support for creating embedded texture images?
>>>> One way to get completely confounded would be if we cherry-picked
>>>> pieces and parts of W3C Recommendations.  Instead we should accept
>>>> specific requirements and interoperability to align Declarative 3D
>>>> compatibly with Open Web Platform.
>>> http://www.w3.org/wiki/Open_Web_Platform
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Web_Platform
>>>> 10.  Use cases and requirements.  Needs work.  What's the plan?
>>> http://www.w3.org/community/declarative3d/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements
>>> http://www.w3.org/community/declarative3d/wiki/Requirement_Building_Blocks
>>> all the best, Don
>> --
>> ________________________________________________________
>> Kristian Sons
>> Deutsches Forschungszentrum für Künstliche Intelligenz GmbH, DFKI
>> Agenten und Simulierte Realität
>> Campus, Geb. D 3 2, Raum 0.77
>> 66123 Saarbrücken, Germany
>> Phone: +49 681 85775-3833
>> Phone: +49 681 302-3833
>> Fax:   +49 681 85775–2235
>> kristian.sons@dfki.de
>> http://www.xml3d.org
>> Geschäftsführung: Prof. Dr. Dr. h.c. mult. Wolfgang Wahlster (Vorsitzender)
>> Dr. Walter Olthoff
>> Vorsitzender des Aufsichtsrats: Prof. Dr. h.c. Hans A. Aukes
>> Amtsgericht Kaiserslautern, HRB 2313
>> ________________________________________________________
Received on Friday, 4 November 2011 04:01:35 UTC

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